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Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

economist.com

241–250 of 320 posts

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"tend to be less religious" That is what I have heard too, but family/society patterns tend to linger for a generation or two after the religiosity has subsided. Czechia, where I live, has only about 13 per cent of self-declared Christians, but the main Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas are still almost universally observed. The trace is still strong, even though the religious core has mostly evaporated…

Yeah I totally acknowledge cultural aspects associated with religion live on. Of course your family has to have a place to invite the family in anyways, which they may or may not be able to afford the code house. Corruption is another factor at play, but they can be confounding factors. This is evident when you see even SELF-BUILT homes often have to follow codes -- what is the owner supposed to be defrauding himself…

I don't think it is absurd to require self-built homes to conform to universal codes. Builders-owners are the first inhabitants, but not necessarily the only ever inhabitants. Some other person/family may be living in them 5, 10 or 20 years from now, and having documentation that the original owner didn't cut corners when building the object reduces the "lemon market asymmetry" during the purchase process that is otherwise almost intractable.

CZ has about 78 per cent home ownership, China has 88. I am not sure whether the difference is so significant; it may reflect underlying differences in population migration (e.g. a lot of young Czechs go study to the traditional universities in Prague, Brno or Olomouc that are far from their family homes and obviously rent their rooms while there; maybe Chinese youngsters mostly study in their own city). We also have about 7 per cent of foreigners who are often transient and don't feel the need to buy any real estate; China doesn't.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#242
post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

> Like workplace safety rules, they are written in the blood of the dead.

I mean this is highlighting a problem. Could the rules have a heavily annotated and multi-layered version that shows the related precedents?

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#243

Libertarians: this is why we have building codes. We don't need builders cutting corners and harming people years down the road, because profit convinced them that was the right thing to do for their own interests.

Why were the people living in that house so greedy that they cheeped out on buying/renting housing? There is soundly built housing in Turkey. If they were rich enough to buy sturdier housing then they could have done that. I'm not pointing this out to blame those people in any way, but it may be legitimately they can't afford better housing and this is the best they could do and the risk of dying in an earthquake was…

> Why were the people living in that house so greedy that they cheeped out on buying/renting housing?

Can you please point out in the article where it states these occupants knowingly purchased/rented a structurally compromised home? Because the article I read does not state this.

Don't say foolish things before reading the article.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#244
post #217

Libertarians: this is why we have building codes. We don't need builders cutting corners and harming people years down the road, because profit convinced them that was the right thing to do for their own interests.

Turkiye had building codes. But a corrupt government didn't enforce them. Non-libertarians: this is exactly why we never trust governments with our lives. Free markets would eventually find a cost-effective solution but governments will only manage to instill a false sense of security with promises and lies while happily taking our money with both hands.

> Free markets would eventually find a cost-effective solution

The facts would seem to disagree with this assumption.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Turkey, these buildings were constructed by building companies close to government. They paid their bribes and constructed the buildings with making every shortcut. What was Turkey's response? The governor of Hatay ordered to demolish the building construction control authority's archive (archive with signed and stamped construction projects, floor studies etc.), with the documents in it (i.e. to bury all evidence…

Building companies are close to the government everywhere. Try getting permits without access to the city council or mayor. Turkey is a major faultline (and most of the northern Mediterranean) and seems to constantly have earthquakes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_earthquakes_in_Turkey In the same area of the earthquakes now (the size of the UK) there was an earthquake in 115 AD that killed 260 thousand peopl…

The source of the 260 thousand killed is unknown and a century after the event, according to the same Wikipedia article, but Antioch also had a Circus, built during the time of Augustus, that could host 80 thousand spectators.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#246
post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

Simultaneously: https://www.theurbanist.org/2023/02/07/one-stairway-is-enoug... There are building codes that are designed to increase authentic safety, and those that are actually trying to achieve other ends, like decreasing the supply of available housing, via the claim of "safety." "Safetyism" is everywhere: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/safetyism-is-the-water-...

In America lots of people have died in single stairway buildings. The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire created a political dynamic where buildings are expected to have dedicated fire escape stairs and that remains a strong social contract to this day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fi...

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#247
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same applies to fire codes. As someone who has been close to almost-tragedies caused by fires, can you give me examples where fire codes are over-zealous? I've had family almost getting killed, even though they did follow the fire codes - the didn't even get a fine or a case against them. If you ask me, the fire codes were not strict enough in that instance.

In my city, there is a required setback of 4' on all sides for solar panels to be installed on flat roofs... all flat roofs. I have a flat roof garage that is 12' x 24' and this law, which is ostensibly for large commercial flat roofs, is preventing me from putting more than 2 panels on my roof. This is the fire code.

It's not just for commercial buildings, it's requested by fire departments for homes too, and it's in the international fire code https://www.solarpowerworldonline.com/2018/04/know-your-code...

I agree that you could argue a garage should get an exemption if it's under X height and surface area. But otherwise, it seems like a sensible request.

Too bad, I was hoping solar garages and solar car ports would take over the world... Maybe if you build the roof out of structural solar panels.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#248
post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

In Turkey, these buildings were constructed by building companies close to government. They paid their bribes and constructed the buildings with making every shortcut. What was Turkey's response? The governor of Hatay ordered to demolish the building construction control authority's archive (archive with signed and stamped construction projects, floor studies etc.), with the documents in it (i.e. to bury all evidence…

Exactly. They're not scams. It is much worse than that. Everything was legalised by Turkey's government.

This is why all the building company CEOs will walk free because their lawyers can produce the paperwork that proves everything was above board. AKP is checkmate.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Turkey, these buildings were constructed by building companies close to government. They paid their bribes and constructed the buildings with making every shortcut. What was Turkey's response? The governor of Hatay ordered to demolish the building construction control authority's archive (archive with signed and stamped construction projects, floor studies etc.), with the documents in it (i.e. to bury all evidence…

Could you link to any sources? This sounds big.

It is all over the social media and serious journalists picked up the story.

Here is the video of the lawyer(Bedia Büyükgebiz) live vlogging from the location, which went viral: https://twitter.com/haskologlu/status/1624433879154102275

The official statement is that all these paperwork and test results are already digitised but the lawyers say that the originals still need to be kept around for some time and destroyed under a strict protocol so to ensure that the digitised versions are indeed faithful to the originals(running the bulldozers over the building with the documents is not part of the protocol).

Also, the city still severely lacks heavy machinery for the rescue efforts and people find it suspicious why would the government would commission these to demolish a one story building, even if the building was damaged. Journalists on the ground say that they haven't heard of any other building being demolished for safety reasons.

Re: Turkey’s earthquakes show the deadly extent of construction scams

#250
post #10

My wife has worked in the 'enforcing building codes' sector of engineering for her entire career. And it's so frustrating to watch. Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. Politicians get elected promising to 'get rid of the red tape'. And then an event occurs and we learn why these building codes exist. Like workplace safety rules, they are writt…

It's also important to consider that not everything is sane in the regulations book. Just look at your local HOA and then combine it with "my job relies on writing regulations" conflict of interest.

That's not to strawman, without regulations, the world would be an extremely unsafe place. Just keep rational about how far to push in the name of public safety. We can always do more, but at some point we completely stagnate any development what so ever. Everything is dangerous, the question really is quantifying and analyzing acceptable dangers.

The safest thing is to build absolutely nothing.

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