It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate • Hacker News Board

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#291

Post by everdrive » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

kebman wrote: post #154

RandallBrown wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a pure engineering role things like credits at large companies, online talks, side projects, etc. are all really great ways to get an interview. I can't really remember the last time I was turned down for an interview. You're totally right about the other part though. I've lost a lot of jobs I think I could have been great at because I'm really bad at whiteboard coding interviews.

Does this mean that the whiteboard coding interviews are flawed, or that guys like us, who has made a ton of more or less great projects are flawed? Why would a company rather have a guy that can solve binary search in five seconds, than one that has showed continuous progress with several finished projects over the years? Do they think accomplished guys somehow are a liability? Or is it that they want a blank sheet…

The reality is that companies just don't know. They have a few interviews to vet a candidate, and can't possibly make a truly informed decision. They move from different vetting tactics and follow trends because they can't really measure the outcome of their vetting strategies directly.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#292

Post by cableshaft » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 1:55 PM UTC

Hermel wrote: post #147

cableshaft wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I've had a portfolio of full video games I've coded and released on my own, as the sole programmer, that could be played on the web, had my name credited on the title screen, and you could even see the code on some of them, and I proudly included the link on my resume. Never brought up during the interview process, I was still expected to take the coding tests, and if I did a little poorly on one question I almo…

Maybe you should have applied with smaller companies that don’t have bureaucratic hiring processes yet?

Happens at smaller companies too. I just finished a round of job interviews, and interviewed at several smaller companies that didn't give a shit, they had their own pet processes for hiring and didn't care about anything I did beyond the most recent two jobs.

At one of them the guy was the epitome of what I would call "friendly condescending", spending half the interview pontificating on why the vast majority of developers don't understand what they're doing and should spend all their free time having a deep philosophical understanding of their work and suggesting I might be amongst those idiots (I'm really not doing a great job of selling it, he went on and on elaborating all the ways in which all developers but him were lacking and how he couldn't find anyone worthy of working at the company), but with a smile on his face the entire time. To be fair he did call himself "the asshole at the company" during the interview, though.

The two job offers I got were from larger companies, but I talked to some younger guys working there that liked video games and sci-fi novels and going to a summer camp hosted by a popular 80s/90s band and DSLR photography, etc. and being able to talk about those things even a little bit may have helped them get excited about me, actually :) Also helped I did well on their coding tests, though.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#293

Post by throwawaylinux » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 1:57 PM UTC

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #279

throwawaylinux wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've made lots (thousands? hundreds at least) of commits to the Linux kernel and have been working on it since pre (git) history, have developed a number of novel concurrent data structures / algorithms for it. I decided to talk with a FANG recruiter a couple of years ago who must have scraped my name from mailing list or commit histories. Despite first making it clear by email I wasn't interested in a job interview…

To play devil's advocate, having a standardized process for all candidates has some benefits. I've witnessed otherwise stellar candidates with amazing open source contributions absolutely bomb coding interviews. Real "write a function that does X" in whatever language you're comfortable with and whatever tools or resources you want. Simple stuff. So yeah maybe the Big O stuff is lame, but sometimes it's also a filter…

> To play devil's advocate, having a standardized process for all candidates has some benefits. I've witnessed otherwise stellar candidates with amazing open source contributions absolutely bomb coding interviews. Real "write a function that does X" in whatever language you're comfortable with and whatever tools or resources you want. Simple stuff.

I'm not sure if you're playing devil's advocate very well here, because this suggests to me that the interview process did not work well. Do you want to hire someone who can write a binary tree insertion in 30 minutes, or someone who can make amazing contributions to real software projects?

> So yeah maybe the Big O stuff is lame, but sometimes it's also a filter for entitlement on the behalf of the candidate. Hiring isn't hard, but it's not easy.

My point wasn't that hiring is easy or even that programming quizzes do not have a part in interviews. It is the level of contempt that some of these companies and their recruiters and hiring processes show to people.

To be fair I did open myself up to it having responded to an unsolicited message, but I always try to politely decline if I get a message from a real person. They responded with something interesting and hooked me to agree to a call. I made it clear I was not interviewing for any position, and again while on the actual call I declined the Big O question. It just shows they were perfectly happy to send out probably mass spams and waste people's time, but were not willing to even read what I wrote or listen to me, or worse they did and decided they'd just ignore what I said anyway.

My point is treating people like people, not like bycatch in your drag net. Simple stuff.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#294

Post by jjeaff » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #279

throwawaylinux wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've made lots (thousands? hundreds at least) of commits to the Linux kernel and have been working on it since pre (git) history, have developed a number of novel concurrent data structures / algorithms for it. I decided to talk with a FANG recruiter a couple of years ago who must have scraped my name from mailing list or commit histories. Despite first making it clear by email I wasn't interested in a job interview…

To play devil's advocate, having a standardized process for all candidates has some benefits. I've witnessed otherwise stellar candidates with amazing open source contributions absolutely bomb coding interviews. Real "write a function that does X" in whatever language you're comfortable with and whatever tools or resources you want. Simple stuff. So yeah maybe the Big O stuff is lame, but sometimes it's also a filter…

So they are stellar candidates with amazing contributions. Yet they can't do your whiteboard questions.

So, are you trying to hire someone who will make stellar contributions to your codebase or are you looking for candidates who are good at answering dumb questions?

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#295

Post by hnuser847 » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 1:59 PM UTC

puppet-master wrote: post #204

trhoad wrote: post #187

You'll miss out on a whole range of engineers that have a life outside of work (which also brings some balance and maturity to the job), and therefore have no time (or inclination) to groom a public presence on the internet. Raising a family, going cycling, volunteering, reading books - these are all more valuable insights into a candidate for me, more so than your retweets.

Folk post this on every thread as if denying the effect somehow makes it go away. As both a candidate and hiring manager, the effect is very real and it is folly to ignore it. As a candidate, I landed a FANG job early in my career almost exclusively on the basis of my (poor quality) tech blog attracting the attention of a recruiter. As a hiring manager, I've dumped all resumes for a position and practically begged an…

> As a candidate, I landed a FANG job early in my career almost exclusively on the basis of my (poor quality) tech blog attracting the attention of a recruiter.

I would be careful attributing this to your blog or thinking that wouldn't have contacted you if you hadn't had a blog. I've never had a blog, live in the midwest, haven't contributed to my Github repos in years, and I don't even work as an engineer anymore (I've switched into product management), and yet I still get the occasional recruiter email from Amazon, Facebook, and even Google. Recruiters cast a VERY wide net because most people don't respond to their emails. I'm not saying I would necessary be qualified for any of these jobs, but merely haven't a recruiter reach out to you doesn't mean much.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#296

Post by xyzzy_plugh » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #294

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate, having a standardized process for all candidates has some benefits. I've witnessed otherwise stellar candidates with amazing open source contributions absolutely bomb coding interviews. Real "write a function that does X" in whatever language you're comfortable with and whatever tools or resources you want. Simple stuff. So yeah maybe the Big O stuff is lame, but sometimes it's also a filter…

So they are stellar candidates with amazing contributions. Yet they can't do your whiteboard questions. So, are you trying to hire someone who will make stellar contributions to your codebase or are you looking for candidates who are good at answering dumb questions?

I don't typically whiteboard. I'll write the prompt on the whiteboard, but otherwise it's a tool. The candidate has a computer, either their own or we provide one, with whatever tools they requested or want to use.

Yes, plenty of candidates with otherwise amazing track records can't code comically simple functions (not dumb questions) together, with tons of help and hints and direction provided. They can't articulate their thought process, can't describe what they're doing, can't ask for help or get combative or aggressive or entitled.

The question is entirely not the point. It's everything else that is signal. Could I work with this person? Could I give them a task and have confidence?

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#297

Post by earthboundkid » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 2:27 PM UTC

simonw wrote: post #248

trhoad wrote: post #187

You'll miss out on a whole range of engineers that have a life outside of work (which also brings some balance and maturity to the job), and therefore have no time (or inclination) to groom a public presence on the internet. Raising a family, going cycling, volunteering, reading books - these are all more valuable insights into a candidate for me, more so than your retweets.

From my article: > The vast majority of candidates have little to no evidence of creativity in public at all. The same is true for many of the best engineers I have worked with. > As a hiring manager, this means you have to learn how to source candidates and interview effectively: you don’t want to miss out on a great engineer just because they spent all of their energy making great products for prior employers rathe…

People on Reddit were making the same complaints, even when I expressly wrote "It’s not a must have, but if you do have it, it’s a leg up." I think people are just rationalizing why they don't need to do anything, so they don't actually read the text of the articles/comments and just project what they want it to mean.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#298

Post by cainxinth » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 2:30 PM UTC

I have a Wikipedia blog. Been doing it for over a decade. I post articles I find interesting, categorize and tag them, do some light copyediting, find/create a 300x300 pixel image to illustrate each, format them in a digestible feed, and added a random button.

For years people asked me why I bothered. I did it because I love Wikipedia and wanted a record of my wikiwalks, but it has also become a fun example of my style and interests to show prospective clients.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#299

Post by xyzzy_plugh » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 2:34 PM UTC

throwawaylinux wrote: post #293

xyzzy_plugh wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate, having a standardized process for all candidates has some benefits. I've witnessed otherwise stellar candidates with amazing open source contributions absolutely bomb coding interviews. Real "write a function that does X" in whatever language you're comfortable with and whatever tools or resources you want. Simple stuff. So yeah maybe the Big O stuff is lame, but sometimes it's also a filter…

> To play devil's advocate, having a standardized process for all candidates has some benefits. I've witnessed otherwise stellar candidates with amazing open source contributions absolutely bomb coding interviews. Real "write a function that does X" in whatever language you're comfortable with and whatever tools or resources you want. Simple stuff. I'm not sure if you're playing devil's advocate very well here, becau…

> I'm not sure if you're playing devil's advocate very well here, because this suggests to me that the interview process did not work well. Do you want to hire someone who can write a binary tree insertion in 30 minutes, or someone who can make amazing contributions to real software projects?

Most companies want malleable, fungible engineers. Most companies are not stable, something is usually in flux -- projects, teams, organizations, business models. Most managers would rather have someone who can write a binary tree insertion in 30 minutes.

But that is not how I personally hire, it's just reality. I'd rather have someone I can work with. In my experience, a lot of big open source contributors are not good colleagues. Are they going to focus on their job or spend their hours in the office working on their passion? Are they going to put their head down and get the work done or write essays debating in a mailing list? If we can't even have a conversation about algorithm complexity then there are better ways I can spend my time.

> It is the level of contempt that some of these companies and their recruiters and hiring processes show to people.

I really don't think this is true contempt, at least not usually. Recruiters, for better or for worse, vary widely. They are rarely good representations of the rest of the business. They're usually just sharks. A good recruiter is worth their weight in gold. But mostly they're ignorant, greedy, and have no care for you or the company you're interviewing for.

> It just shows they were perfectly happy to send out probably mass spams and waste people's time, but were not willing to even read what I wrote or listen to me, or worse they did and decided they'd just ignore what I said anyway.

Look, I'll be honest. I've conducted nearly a thousand interviews. I've hired at FAANGs, unicorns, YC companies. I almost never look at a candidate's resume/CV. If I'm not doing a coding interview and I want you to go into detail about something you worked on, I might take a glance. But otherwise, I actually do not care. I don't have time to peruse your GitHub profile or past projects. I don't even have time. One in a hundred applicants even get interviews, and I'm often interviewing 2-3 times a week. If it's important to you, tell me about it! I'd rather talk to you than read about you! In my experience, the resume/CV/published work is not a strong signal for making a good hire. It sounds like it's already helped you get your foot in the door, I wouldn't recommend expecting it to do anything more.

I'm sorry you had a shitty experience with this company, but I encourage you to be humble and give them the benefit of the doubt. Unless they're a tiny, boutique company with a lifestyle or OSS-focused culture, they are busy people. If they don't ask these questions, then more often than not, by the time we're in a room or on a call together it's a waste of both our time.

Re: It doesn't take much public creativity to stand out as a job candidate

#300

Post by commandlinefan » Fri, Jul 23, 2021, 2:38 PM UTC

SlowAndCalm wrote: post #184

cableshaft wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I've had a portfolio of full video games I've coded and released on my own, as the sole programmer, that could be played on the web, had my name credited on the title screen, and you could even see the code on some of them, and I proudly included the link on my resume. Never brought up during the interview process, I was still expected to take the coding tests, and if I did a little poorly on one question I almo…

I am similar (putting my WebGL games on my portfolio) and I've found it's actually a pretty good filter of employers for me. If they bring it up and are willing to have a discussion about it, it's always a good sign. There's a wide range of topics to talk about that can relate to the possibly more boring requirements of the job. If they are dismissive of them, it tends to be an early sign that they are unable to thin…

> it's actually a pretty good filter of employers for me

Reminds me of the story of the movie Good Will Hunting - Ben Affleck and Matt Damon added a completely out of place scene (a gay sex scene) in the middle of the screenplay just to see who would call it out, as a way of checking to see who had actually read the entire script.