Live data from Hacker News

DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

venturebeat.com

291–300 of 312 posts

Re: DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

#291
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is if you believe biological general intelligence is the end goal of evolution, which I believe is highly unlikely. Intelligence is simply a special side-product of evolution, there is nothing general about general intelligence. Many organisms can thrive without it. There is also a non-negligible chance that all organisms would die out before reaching intelligence. We are fortunate to live in a world that produc…

Depends, if any of the laws of physics were off by a billionth of a percent, there would be no human intelligence (or carbon life, or atoms). There are many reasonable assumptions one could draw from the fact.

Anthropic principle

Re: DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

#292

Basically, any problem with a solution fits into RL: reward of 1 if you are AGI and 0 otherwise. Go learn. This setting on its own is meaningless! The “how” of the RL agent is not even 99% of the problem, it is all of it. Given our understanding of both DL and neuroscience, it is not even clear to me that we can say with confidence that Neural Networks are a sufficiently expressive architecture to cover an AGI. The h…

> The “how” of the RL agent is not even 99% of the problem, it is all of it I'm not sure that's true anymore - pretty much any objective devised is being solved by ML solutions within months (with some exceptions such as Chollet's ARC, maybe Winogrande). But those same models will perform poorly on other unseen tasks, because ML takes shortcuts if it can. We used to have unsolved tasks for decades, such as Go. It's n…

Maybe I’m misinterpreting your comment, but what about self-driving cars? Hugely researched and funded area, not without success, but even the best self-driving system is so inferior to a human driver.

I’m not dissing self-driving car research, just not sure we’re anywhere close to parity, and the problem is fairly well defined.

Re: DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

#293
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RL + piggybacking on human culture might be enough, or evolution + RL for biological agents.

> RL + piggybacking on human culture might be enough, or evolution + RL for biological agents. Yes, but over what timeframe? Will there be any diminishing returns plateaus along the way?

We still have unknown unknowns but we also know a lot more about how neural nets deal with various tasks and dataset preparations. We know what kind of applications are good enough and where they still fail, which is much more than a decade ago.

If you look at sci-fi movies with robots, they usually speak in a metallic voice but have good situational and language understanding. In reality it was the other way around, it's much easier to do artificial voices than understand the topic. That kind of naive understanding seems silly now, and this is how we gradually advance.

GPT-3 taught us that good sounding text is not that hard to generate if you have ample training data, but modeling the larger context is still hard. These kind of fine distinctions are what I call progress.

Re: DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

#294
post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a very interesting question. Personally I take mammalian intelligence as the relevant standard we're actually aiming at. So I'd say mouse+. Houseflys, I think, are closer to non-intelligent than intelligent.

That's a little chauvinist! Birds regularly run circles around mice... er, so to speak.

My view is: mammalian is sufficient, but not necessary.

Crow-level intelligence is probable likewise sufficient.

I think aiming at mammalian is a good long-term ambition. I think, either way, we are hundreds of years off.

Re: DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are strongly associated with all known examples of generalized intelligence. Why wouldn’t they be relevant?

> Because they are strongly associated with all known examples of generalized intelligence Correlation != Causation. While they very likely might be relevant, I've not seen anything to conclusively prove that it is. The ability to forget is important to humans because we are emotional beings, but I don't think that necessarily is a requirement for generalized intelligence. "sleep" (as in what happens during sleep, no…

I completely agree that there is no conclusive evidence. However, it is the number one activity that influences cognitive performance in all animals that have been tested. Saying that sleep is not proven to be important for intelligence because the causal link has not been established seems a bit like saying exercise has nothing to do with muscle growth, because the full causal chain has also not been established (we do know a pretty full causal chain in this case, so maybe it is not the best example). I think if you were a betting man, and as a scientist you have to be to some degree, you would put your money on sleep supporting some essential process for intelligence.

Re: DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the title of the paper makes more sense if you consider that ten years ago, someone could have written a paper in a similar spirit with a different take on "what is enough". Back then, it would probably have been titled: "Backpropagation of errors is enough". The last ten years have shown that backpropagation -- while a crucial component -- is not enough. Personally, I would not be shocked to find out in the…

RL can forget, just start training it on a dataset that is different from what it was originally trained on.

You are right; I should have been more specific. RL does forget in the simplest sense, i.e. that certain weights in your model drift away if the data distribution is non-stationary. Humans seem to be a bit more targeted in their forgetting.

Re: DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

#297
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that mean the entire world would have to be simulated? Or at least some subset of society?

The human brain does have a simulator. It's well known. How do you know where to move your hand to catch a ball? Or what is happening when you blink? Your brain is constantly simulating a few milliseconds ahead.

That may be true, but that's not to simulate. "Dreaming" is used to "simulate", and it's only a hack, in humans probably not even explicitly programmed.

The hack is to have the simulator itself ... also be a learned system, and not to simulate the world, because you don't act on the real world, only a tiny part of it that you can measure and actually get into your brain (which is a simplified version of what you see, or a "latent variable"). There's no need to simulate anything that doesn't affect your reasoning. The information flows in reality with an intelligent actor is like this.

World (say, a tree falls) -> input representation (e.g. eyes) -> simplified version ("latent" version) -> intelligent actor -> muscles -> affects world.

Now what everybody thinks of as a simulator is something that simulates the whole thing. But if you insert one more link (output of reasoning agent at time T -> simplified representation at time T+1) you can then run a "simulation":

random simplified version ("what if your car became a tree and fell ?") -> intelligent actor -> next input for latent representation ("then what happens ?")

For safety reasons, it is probably prudent to disconnect the muscles in this state. You know, so you don't knock out your mother when you dream about boxing.

And as you say, this "predict the future" network is probably useful by itself in dealing with the world. So you can catch tennis balls and the like.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.10122

Or, if you like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPsXxLyqpfs

Re: DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The “how” of the RL agent is not even 99% of the problem, it is all of it I'm not sure that's true anymore - pretty much any objective devised is being solved by ML solutions within months (with some exceptions such as Chollet's ARC, maybe Winogrande). But those same models will perform poorly on other unseen tasks, because ML takes shortcuts if it can. We used to have unsolved tasks for decades, such as Go. It's n…

Maybe I’m misinterpreting your comment, but what about self-driving cars? Hugely researched and funded area, not without success, but even the best self-driving system is so inferior to a human driver. I’m not dissing self-driving car research, just not sure we’re anywhere close to parity, and the problem is fairly well defined.

Right, I was talking about mathematically defined objectives and inputs (algorithms & data, in practice). With self-driving, arguably the main stumbling block is that the objective is not well-defined and the inputs are potentially wrong (faulty sensor data).

Re: DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

#299
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He said “can’t we just unplug it?” This is a microcosm of the entire issue. It’s something a child might say. For global warming, can’t we just turn on the air conditioning? No, we can’t just unplug it. If it were running as a sandboxed application inside some kind of runtime environment with only access to print output text and read input text, as you might expect a GPT-n program to run, certainly you could unplug…

The entire sandbox thing is foolish. Obviously it won’t be sandboxed anyway because of what you’ve pointed out. But any sandbox we design won’t be good enough. GTP is not supposed to exist according to computer science and machine learning experts in 2017. They were all wrong. Same with deep dream, styleGAN. And it will be true with the next thing. The mental gymnastics refers to the fact that people have cognitive d…

> But any sandbox we design won’t be good enough.

This isn't really true.

To bring back your analogy of searching the space of all programs - suppose we wanted to simulate every turing machine of at most N states for some sufficiently large N. One of these turing machines is going to encode an AGI. Nonetheless, it is still just an encoded turing machine being simulated by a turing machine simulator. No matter what great intelligence is encoded by those states, it's still a state machine following the same rules as every other turing machine in existence. It's a fixed set of states following a fixed set of rules on an unbounded-length tape of memory.

The same is true for an AGI in a computer program in a modern computer. A complex modern neural nets are still just a program that takes a giant array of numbers and feeds it through a network of transformations repeatedly, yielding a new array of numbers. No matter what brilliant information that array of numbers encodes, the array of numbers is still just a bunch of bits somewhere in RAM. It's data, not execution. It can't invoke the IPC stack unless *we* program functionality in that interprets the data and executes functionality based on it.

It's like the brain in a vat[0] thought experiment. A super-intelligent brain in a vat can't escape the lab unless the lab researchers give the brain control over something physical. A super-intelligent brain can't even know that it's a brain in the vat unless it is told. Why then would you expect a digital brain in a simulated environment to even know that it is what it is, much less how to perfectly execute a bug in a simulator (which might provably not exist[1]) to send a copy of its source code to another computer and end up replicating and distributing itself?

The simple answer is: Sandboxing an AI is significantly easier than you seem to think. When an AI takes over the world, it's going to be because someone handed the AI root access to a big tech data center so it can optimize operations; not because the AI discovered the perfect sequence of zero-day bugs to overcome all of humanity's best cybersecurity efforts.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_verification

Re: DeepMind says reinforcement learning is ‘enough’ to reach general AI

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends, if any of the laws of physics were off by a billionth of a percent, there would be no human intelligence (or carbon life, or atoms). There are many reasonable assumptions one could draw from the fact.

Anthropic principle

This assumes a multiverse which is interesting, because it leaves open the possibility that we are in one of the infinite universes(pl) that does have intelligence as its goal. :)
Post reply on HN