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Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

291–300 of 510 posts

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How does being a victim imply that nothing can be done? Because if you had no role in the matter, you couldn't have prevented it.

The fact that something in the past couldn't have been prevented doesn't mean that there's nothing to be done in the present. There's also the fact that often you couldn't have prevented it.

It can be made less likely. It's the victim mindset that makes the victim believe it can't be prevented, which in turn prevents the person in question from making changes that will prevent problems in the future.

Chicago cops frisking you all the time -- wear skin tight pants.

Car accident -- use defensive driving techniques.

Being shot and killed for sleeping at a Wendy's -- don't resist arrest.

Wife divorced you, took your house and kids -- don't get married, OR, learn to discriminate.

Sexist manager won't promote you -- join a company run by females, OR, start your own company.

Pandemic -- move to the country.

On the other hand, if you prefer not to solve your problems yourself, you can say "Why should I change, when other people are the ones doing something wrong", fold your arms, and wait for a man to solve your problem for you.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#292
post #149
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems to be an orthogonal issue. Namely, the expectation that whatever wrong you have suffered should be righted. The message is to shut up because nobody is going to help you. Certainly effective to getting the victim to stop complaining. But that's not the same as actually coping with the issue, or better yet, solving it.

Well, maybe it seems like it's just trying to get you to shut up, but part of that message is that you're the one who's in control of your reaction, and that's what you can reliably control in that kind of situation. That even if your feelings are hurt, fundamentally you can still be OK, if you can learn to let it slide off you rather than getting all tied up about it. That's a pretty helpful, if difficult, lesson to…

Except that, kids who let slide first attempts at bullying get bullied again and again and again. And it escalates. It also creates a cycle in which a kid that was bullied once is more likely to be bullied again.

The kids who are able to set boundaries, say no, respond etc are more likely to stop whole dynamic even before it starts.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because “systemic racism” is a term used mostly by college educated white people for other college educated white people. But we can agree that it exists, right? Whatever term you’d use, the phenomenon it describes is real. And it refers to present injustices as well as historical ones.

Many of the phenomena it describes are real, for sure, at least with respect to Black people. My Maryland county wasn’t desegregated until 1968, in my parents’ generation. That has produced statistical disparities that persist to this day.

Then what are you arguing? That it exists and doesn't exist at the same time?

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused by your argument, because I'd consider making $200K/yr to be firmly on the side of wealthy. Also, I think he was talking about the circumstances being unremarkable, not the people themselves. (Minor note, since you brought it up: it's spelled "Caltech".)

Id wager if you asked most of your graduating classmates if $200k@25 is impressive, most or all would say no. That’s a new grad’s total compensation and I’m several years in already. Appreciate the correction on spelling. I’m more a Midwest guy myself.

Where on earth did you go to school? Most people I know — even in tech — aren’t making $200k well into their 30s.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#295
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says TVI is learned, not PTSD.

> But the people who score very high on TIV are generally those who have experienced some kind of trauma, like PTSD.

Yeah. Restated: Often, people who score high on TVI are a subset of people who have undergone trauma like PTSD.

TVI is learned according to the author, not general trauma or PTSD.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#296

I always considered the current culture of cultivated-victimhood to be rooted in the manner Western people fundamentally define themselves by their triumphs against adversity. In the absence of real adversity, people seek and create surrogate adversity for themselves to triumph over. From this process they can rationalise themselves as having the inner-strength to overcome such barriers.

How about the west being founded on slavery, and genocides while sustaining racism and misogyny for hundreds of years.

I hear a lot of "head in the sand" thinking. If we don't talk about it, it doesn't exist and never happened.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#297
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We can debate all day long about the merits of explaining systemic racism to young black kids vs keeping them ignorant about it. However the people ignoring the facts are the ones who deny systemic racism exists. Because “systemic racism” is a term used mostly by college educated white people for other college educated white people. Not only that, it deliberately repurposes a label that ordinarily refers to prejudi…

There are more factors to systemic racism than just worse economic outcomes, so it's naive to assert that only black people experience its negative effects. Immigration comes to mind, where profiling is rampant in enforcement (but only really for people who look Mexican, not for people who look / sound Canadian). Or even immigration quotas -- there's the same annual green card cap per country, whether it's India or C…

> There are more factors to systemic racism than just worse economic outcomes, so it's naive to assert that only black people experience its negative effects.

In the US economic disparities drive pretty much everything else.

> Immigration comes to mind, where profiling is rampant in enforcement (but only really for people who look Mexican, not for people who look / sound Canadian).

As a brown guy with a beard, maybe I get screened more at TSA, or maybe I don’t. (I definitely do outside the US.) At most that’s just regular racism caused by the preconceptions of TSA officers. It doesn’t lead to some systemic or persistent disadvantage.

> Or even immigration quotas -- there's the same annual green card cap per country, whether it's India or China or Iceland, thereby implicitly biasing toward smaller countries.

I’m not sure I would even call this racism.

> Or, affirmative action being used as a wedge issue for Asian Americans especially.

This is backward. It proceeds from a false premise “non-white solidarity” that’s broke by the use of wedge issues. The opposite is true: Asians have distinct interests and people trying to get them to support affirmative action measures are trying to get them to vote against their own interests. Ibram Kendi-style “equity”—where races are represented in proportion to their share of the population—would be disastrous for Asians. We would go from 20-40% in top universities to 6%. We’d go from 35% in Silicon Valley to 6%-10%. And that’s not a hypothetical thing. I went to TJHSST, where progressives voted to eliminate the admissions test. That will cut Asians from 70% to 20%. NYC is trying to do the same thing.

Asians, and to a great extent Latinos, have very little self-interest in rocking the boat. While immigrants in Europe are seeing generational poverty, Asians and Latinos enjoy similar or even higher levels of income mobility as whites. Cubans and Vietnamese came over as refugees with nothing, and achieved economic parity with white Americans within a single generation. There’s only a handful of countries (UK, Canada, Australia) where that sort of thing happens. We have very little self interest in messing with the current system.

It’s fair to argue that we should give up some of our privilege to help reduce systemic disparities. But that’s a completely different argument. But telling us that these changes are in our own self interest, because the existing system is racist against us, is just gaslighting.

> And just because some Asian populations are doing well, doesn't mean that _all_ of them are.

Yes, virtually all of them are. When you see people incoming intra-Asian disparities it’s almost invariably based on pointing to Asian groups that are recent immigrants. That’s why you suddenly started seeing articles about the plight of “Bhutanese Americans.” Virtually all of them came here during the Obama administration, as refugees. They might be poor now, but that’s to be expected at this stage.

I’m Bangladeshi. Bangladeshi Americans are one of the poorer Asian groups. But Indian Americans are one of the richest. That’s not the product of “racism”—that would be absurd, even we can’t usually tell each other apart by sight. Instead it’s because Indians started immigrating in the 1960s and Bangladeshis only did so in significant numbers since the 2000s. But even Asian groups who come here in poverty quickly move up the ladder. In 1980, Vietnamese were among the poorest ethnic groups, having come here as refugees. Today, they have reached economic parity with whites.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#298
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but it's been weaponized extremely well by one side in recent years (2012~14 and onwards). Reminds me a lot of how it was weaponized by the other side in the late 80s and 90s.

I honestly have no idea which “side” you mean. Seems to me that both mainstream political sides are mainly about victimhood now. The whole point of Trumpism is “actually I ’m the victim”

The fact that you brought Trump as a counter point shows that you have a pretty clear idea of which side the parent poster meant.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#299
post #277

Generally speaking, a victim is someone who didn't/doesn't have the power to keep themselves from being a victim.

If you encourage someone to believe that they don't have the power to keep themselves from being a victim, generally speaking, that's a good way to turn them into a victim. Better approach: teach people to recognize and use the power they have to avoid becoming a victim when they encounter a potential victimizer.

Obviously we’re speaking in generalities, but sometimes people reclaim that power vía speaking up about victimhood.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#300

US tech appears rife in this right now. I follow lots of engineers on twitter and some folks seem to spend more time enrolled in their own victimhood or the victimhood of others who cause they love to rally to (because they get to point victims and their own invented perpetrators). I often want to point this out, but I would risk losing my job.

I remember seeing one of these very outspoken tech people at a conference. He tweeted a photo of a Mexican woman holding a presentation and saying what a great topic it was. Then he preceded to sit in a corner, ignore the talk, and work on his laptop. Or people who pull in >300k, go on about communism, but buy fast cars.

Full of shit, the lot.

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