Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing • Hacker News Board

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#291

Post by refurb » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 2:33 AM UTC

e40 wrote: post #255

refurb wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about as inaccurate a take as one could possibly imagine and is a great example of seeing the world through political bias. Reagan did not lead the charge. The ACLU was actively involved in shutting down inpatient psychiatric facilities because of the abuse that was occurring.[1] With the advent of antipsychotics, our-patient treatment became an option and was regarded as more humane. [1] https://www.aclu.org…

The news media, at the time, said it was due to federal funding being cut, and Reagan was in charge. I don't doubt there are liberty issues with institutions, though. EDIT: Here's a good summary: https://www.kqed.org/news/11209729/did-the-emptying-of-menta... Now I remember: pushed the funding from federal to state responsibility, which caused many states to empty out the institutions. And where do you think many of…

The institutions were being emptied out because organizations like the ACLU brought cases to court to have them emptied.

People were being held against their will in conditions that were causing a stir in the media. It was regarded as a human rights issue that they not be confined unless there was no other option. Hence the shift to outpatient care in the community.

Pining it all on Reagan’s cuts is grossly inaccurate.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#292

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 2:35 AM UTC

stevecalifornia wrote: post #238

klondike_ wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inpatient mental hospitals used to be in every state. They housed not only the mentally ill but also the chronically homeless and other outcasts. As the advent of antipsychotics and antidepressants reduced their population, these hospitals were an obvious target for budget cuts throughout the 80s and 90s. They money for the community health centers that were supposed to replace them never materialized, and thousands…

I would add that you are missing a major component for why mental hospitals went away-- public opinion changed. The public was made aware of abuses and such abuses were also dramatized in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest. There was pressure to shut these down. Separately, I will add that we need these hospitals back desperately. I don't know who will sign up for this tough job, but we need a place for the mentally ill…

[deleted]

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#293

Post by ditonal » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 2:37 AM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #271

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #206

I'm in the US. I was homeless as a teenager (not by choice). I live adjacent to a major homeless community (not by design). My ex left our family to join the homeless community (she struggles with mh issues). I have some observations. We could sharply reduce homeless numbers here if we had in-patient mental health facilities (for non-wealthy), comprehensive housing aid and politically powerful job placement programs.…

An ex of mine worked with the homeless through a training program attached to a shelter. Maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 took the training seriously and were stable enough to actually put it to any use. The rest were just there for free bus passes and meals, or were too unstable to hold even an unskilled job for a month. The hardest part was that those who needed help the most could have gotten it through the program, but wer…

As someone who had the unfortunate experience of being locked in a psych ward, there’s nothing “conspiracy” related about the fear of being involuntary committed, where you get stripped of all basic rights with no trial.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#294

Post by Aerroon » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 2:45 AM UTC

zdragnar wrote: post #271

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #206

I'm in the US. I was homeless as a teenager (not by choice). I live adjacent to a major homeless community (not by design). My ex left our family to join the homeless community (she struggles with mh issues). I have some observations. We could sharply reduce homeless numbers here if we had in-patient mental health facilities (for non-wealthy), comprehensive housing aid and politically powerful job placement programs.…

An ex of mine worked with the homeless through a training program attached to a shelter. Maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 took the training seriously and were stable enough to actually put it to any use. The rest were just there for free bus passes and meals, or were too unstable to hold even an unskilled job for a month. The hardest part was that those who needed help the most could have gotten it through the program, but wer…

>most thought they would be locked up in a ward or some similar conspiracy fear.

This fear is quite legitimate though. Search around online forums for involuntary commitment and you'll see lots of horror stories. There are even news articles about it.[0]

If a homeless person can get back on their feet, then they are a full member of society with all the same rights as everyone else. If they get institutionalized, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, then that'll be a mark that follows them around. They will be denied some rights.[1] A patient at such a facility often has fewer rights than even people in prison. At least in prison if your time is up then you'll be released.

The problems don't stop there either. Misdiagnoses are common. Even when they aren't, it's likely that the treatment they offer has no or minimal effect. It's also possible that the trauma of being in such a facility causes issues of its own.

I can completely understand why people would prefer to struggle with their problems as homeless, but free, rather than go to such a facility.

[0] https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/pub...

[1] https://reason.com/volokh/2020/09/10/the-second-amendment-an...

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#295

Post by Aerroon » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 2:47 AM UTC

ditonal wrote: post #293

zdragnar wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An ex of mine worked with the homeless through a training program attached to a shelter. Maybe 2 or 3 out of 10 took the training seriously and were stable enough to actually put it to any use. The rest were just there for free bus passes and meals, or were too unstable to hold even an unskilled job for a month. The hardest part was that those who needed help the most could have gotten it through the program, but wer…

As someone who had the unfortunate experience of being locked in a psych ward, there’s nothing “conspiracy” related about the fear of being involuntary committed, where you get stripped of all basic rights with no trial.

And there's usually no legal recourse either. It has to be some extreme abuse for the possibility to sue successfully.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#296

Post by leetcrew » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 3:00 AM UTC

klodolph wrote: post #267

thebean11 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Psychiatrists are mostly doing medication management because that’s where they’re most effective. I think it's money: insurance will shell a lot more $/hour if they do 15 minute medication appointments instead of hour therapy + medication appointments.

Going to dissent here—we need psychiatrists doing medication management because there are so many medications today, and so many previously untreatable conditions which are treatable with modern medications. If we switched to one-stop therapy + meds, the psychiatrist shortage would be worse.

the problem with this approach is there's not an obvious person to consult with to decide whether to start with therapy, medication, or both. I find that therapists tend to consider themselves unqualified to even suggest that their clients look into medication (or perhaps they are explicitly prohibited from doing so, idk). psychiatrists can either give you drugs or say no, but they tend to offer you something if there's at least a chance it could help.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#297

Post by zajio1am » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 3:13 AM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #118

dd_roger wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Related news: European Court of Human Rights just made important ruling that decriminalizes begging. Making it criminal to be poor is against human rights. Lol, you're taking a very ungenuine shortcut. Legal residents who also happen to be poor do not resort to begging because they receive help through the appropriate welfare programs. The the overwhelming large majority of people affected by this law are foreigner…

I sure that we both can agree that - illegitimacy or being foreigners does not remove human rights and human dignity. - feelings or sympathy or lack of them should not be taken account when administering justice or government policy. ps. Roma from Romania are not illegitimate. They are free to move across Europe. Free travel is also for the poor. Swiss voters reject bid to curb EU freedom of movement https://www.dw.c…

> Roma from Romania are not illegitimate. They are free to move across Europe.

Note that freedom of movevement inside EU/EEA is not unrestricted (like, say, inside USA), see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Rights_Directive :

> To be fully covered by the European right of free movement, the EEA citizen needs to exercise one of the four treaty rights:

> - working as an employee (this includes looking for work for a reasonable amount of time),

> - working as a self-employed person,

> - studying,

> - being self-sufficient or retired.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#298

Post by detaro » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 3:20 AM UTC

dd_roger wrote: post #149

nabla9 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sure that we both can agree that - illegitimacy or being foreigners does not remove human rights and human dignity. - feelings or sympathy or lack of them should not be taken account when administering justice or government policy. ps. Roma from Romania are not illegitimate. They are free to move across Europe. Free travel is also for the poor. Swiss voters reject bid to curb EU freedom of movement https://www.dw.c…

Romania isn't in Schengen so yes, they are illegitimate. But you're the only one talking about Roma here. What should be taken into account for policy making is the interest of the country's citizens (and non-national legal residents to a lesser extent), not "begging tourists".

Freedom of movement also applies to citizens of non-Schengen EU countries.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#299

Post by ACow_Adonis » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 3:31 AM UTC

recursive wrote: post #240

benlm wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.sbs.com.au/topics/voices/culture/article/2017/07... "Homelessness then, in Australia, is more than lacking a roof over your head, it is also the absence of those features associated with “home”: permanence, security, and the freedom to come and go." "If the world were to accept Australia’s definition and include everyone with inadequate shelter, the number would exceed 1.6 billion – roughly 20 percent of…

I spent ~10 years moving about annually from apartment to apartment. It wasn't due to lack of resources. I had no sense of permanence, but I would definitely not have said that I was inadequately sheltered.

as long as you had some form of legal tenure over your resident property (this would include rental agreements and long term stays), and the property was deemed suitable by Australian standards for human habitation, you would not have been included in the homeless numbers.

merely being mobile or moving a lot is not likely enough to make you considered homeless by the Australian definition.

however, if you were mobile BECAUSE you were unable to obtain a secure residence and tenureship, or the residences you inhabited were of such a low standard that they didn't meet community standards for acceptable habitation, then you probably would.

I'm struggling to remember, but there would likely be a means/ intention component as well: so FIFO workers, mobile executives are not homeless, but couch surfing students or young people may very well be (even if they spent recent time sleeping under a roof). people camping (or glamping), grey nomads, for example, aren't considered homeless.

that being said, even if these people were counted, it's more of an argument that Australian official numbers should be even lower (though i'd recommend most people to focus of the primary/ first level homeless count for the common "popular" view of homelessness if we're going to reduce a complex phenomenon to a simple digestible stat: but it has the downside that people can then tend to misinterpret low homelessness for other arguments: say, how much poverty there is or how much social housing we need.

Re: Finland has slashed homelessness; the rest of Europe is failing

#300

Post by thebean11 » Tue, Jan 26, 2021, 3:38 AM UTC

caturopath wrote: post #247

thebean11 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Psychiatrists are mostly doing medication management because that’s where they’re most effective. I think it's money: insurance will shell a lot more $/hour if they do 15 minute medication appointments instead of hour therapy + medication appointments.

Integrating counselling and medical doctoring is a strange idea, and it's somewhat weird that it's even as much of a thing as it is. Drug-focused psychiatrists are certainly going to be a thing so long as med school is so costly and med schools conspire to keep the supply of doctors low.

It's weird even when the medical doctor is trying to alleviate the same symptoms as the counselor? I think the way you put it simply sounds weird because a psychiatrist isn't the first doctor you think of. The concept isn't strange at all, especially considering the huge overlap in training.