Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project • Hacker News Board

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#291

Post by ksec » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 4:38 AM UTC

MobiusHorizons wrote: post #259

ksec wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well All 2016 - 2019 MacBook are pretty much junk. As shown by their resale value. So it was probably one of the worst Apple product ever. But the Pre-2015 MacBook Pro and M1? They are great. ( Although M1 still have shitty keyboard )

> Although M1 still have shitty keyboard Curious have you used the new M1 keyboard? It's a totally different mechanism, and feels completely different than the ~2019 MBP I have for work. I would go so far as to say that the 2019 keyboard was hands-down the worst keyboard I have ever used, but the new one is really excellent. I really enjoy mine. It seems to me to be one of the better laptop keyboards I have ever used…

>If you have used the new keyboards, what do you dislike about them?

Key Travel. And Spacing between Keys although I could cope with that a little easier. I find Most people who like the new M1 / Magic Keyboard are either

a) Those that actually like / have no problem with the butterfly keyboard ( Macbook 2016-2019 )but much prefer to have the reliability of old scissor ( Macbook Pre 2015 )

b) Those that didn't like butterfly Keyboard but was forced to use it for work, and got a new scissors / Magic Keyboard ( 2020 / M1 ) would find it to be so much better than butterfly.

But then if you have an old scissors to compare to the key travel is just so much better.

Butterfly Keyboard - 0.7mm New Magic Keyboard - 1.0mm Old Scissors Key - 1.3mm

( Key Travel means the distance pressed downwards before the keystroke is recognised )

It is not like I didn't spend time trying the Butterfly and the New Magic Keyboard at work. And it just didn't work out. My MacBook Pro at home is Pre 2015. And the old scissors just give me so much more responsive feedback for only a cost of 0.3mm thickness.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#292

Post by kamalhm » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 4:43 AM UTC

reikonomusha wrote: post #21

For projects like these, I don’t know why Apple doesn’t just step in and help. What have they got to lose?

It's not what they got to lose, but what they got to gain for doing this? Which is almost nothing. Except they fully support linux on their laptops too

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#293

Post by will_pseudonym » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 4:56 AM UTC

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #177

pkulak wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac hardware is just so damn good though. And everywhere. I absolutely agree with what you're saying... but man, Linux working well on an M1 Mac would be my ideal machine.

Every time I accidentally hit something on the touch bar, I hate that I still have a Mac. Every time I intentionally use the ESC and have to touch it two or three times, I hate the Mac. Every time I need an F key, or want to do something without looking (like change volume or hit mute), I hate the Mac. Thank goodness this year I stopped using it so much as I did not have to repair the keyboard twice and potentially g…

The critiques you have of Macbooks of touchbar and keyboard wouldn't apply to the Mac Mini. And they have an M1 Mac Mini.

Personally, I would love an M1 Mac Mini that ran Linux well. Very exciting development.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#294

Post by monocasa » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 4:59 AM UTC

gorkish wrote: post #204

Apple needs to give a little here. I think it's patently ridiculous that we have to enlist the assistance of console hackers in order to have a chance at porting the most used operating system in the entire world to run on hardware that in all likelihood already happily runs it inside of Apple's labs. > In particular, we will be reverse engineering the Apple GPU architecture and developing an open source driver for i…

> This is all a noble goal, but I can't see this as being anything other than a complete and total non-starter with zero cooperation from Apple.

I think marcan has proven he has the chops for pieces like that. The ps4 linux port had him reverse engineering the ISA for the custom risc cores that are some of the deepest firmware of a pretty modern AMD GPU. Like even the open source drivers just treat this stuff as blobs and moves on with their life, but he had to port a fix over and showed off more publicly than anyone else had.

This Apple stuff is for sure more work, but it all seems within his wheelhouse. Hence the patreon I think, attacking the size of the problem with some funding to make it more viable than a side project.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#295

Post by ravi-delia » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:02 AM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #229

tadfisher wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably those people would just not buy Apple hardware if buying into the ecosystem was a requirement. So if that number is non-zero, and Apple sells hardware above cost, then yes, Apple is better off selling only its hardware and not its services to this small subset of the market.

Thats the thing though. The hardware is so good that there are people who would run Linux on the Mac if they could, but since they can't they cave in and just run MacOS. I have an M1 and its so much better than my Linux XPS 15 that I just end up using the M1 (and getting sucked into their eco-system). And this is just their first release!

But it's not like they get a whole lot more money from someone being 'in the ecosystem'. The main thing would be an iphone, but even counting that I think that they'd make more selling the hardware with a little flexibility than hoping to lure people in. The fact of the matter is that the M1 isn't just a good laptop, it is the best, and the next round will be better. That's enough of a sales pitch that honestly the software might be holding them back.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#296

Post by zarvox » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:05 AM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #225

svenpeter wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were two versions of the PS3: The original model and a slimmed down version released after a few years. the timeline was something like this: - Sony released the original PS3 with Linux running under a hypervisor that locked certain things (e.g. 3D rendering and their DRM) - Sony released the PS3 slim without Linux. They claimed they didn't have the resources to make Linux run on it. (We later figured out all t…

Got a link to that story?

https://media.ccc.de/v/27c3-4087-en-console_hacking_2010

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#297

Post by deepGem » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:11 AM UTC

somehnguy wrote: post #278

Is anyone else ever saddened when they think about the man hours spent on projects like this (reversing software or hardware to accomplish what should be a simple goal) when all it would take is the teensiest bit of cooperation to not waste all those hours? I use waste in the sense of like trying to assemble something complicated with the instructions just out of arms reach, not in the sense of doing something pointl…

I am quite saddened by I also see it as highly challenging and reverse engineering is one of those excruciating tasks. Sadly, I am not a good C programmer and I just can't get myself to write C code.

That said, with the rise of RISC-V architecture, I believe there will be viable alternatives to Apple silicon which are much more open. Building a new linux variant for those computers might be a lot less excruciating than reverse engineering Apple silicon. However, the timeline for RISC-V computers is a huge unknown.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#298

Post by EamonnMR » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:24 AM UTC

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #177

pkulak wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac hardware is just so damn good though. And everywhere. I absolutely agree with what you're saying... but man, Linux working well on an M1 Mac would be my ideal machine.

Every time I accidentally hit something on the touch bar, I hate that I still have a Mac. Every time I intentionally use the ESC and have to touch it two or three times, I hate the Mac. Every time I need an F key, or want to do something without looking (like change volume or hit mute), I hate the Mac. Thank goodness this year I stopped using it so much as I did not have to repair the keyboard twice and potentially g…

I mapped caps lock to escape and liked it so much I did it on my thinkpad too.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#299

Post by EamonnMR » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

takeiteasyy wrote: post #207

actuator wrote: post #40

It seems so amazing to me that Microsoft saw the ARM opportunity with Windows RT, released 8 years back but somehow managed to not succeed with a stellar ARM laptop story. Maybe Qualcomm is more to blame here for never progressing as well as Apple has done on chips but maybe the software experience was just not there. We would probably already have good ARM laptops running linux distros if Windows on ARM had taken of…

My hypothesis for why it failed is because the only real value Windows provides is with legacy Windows applications, which their ARM platform did not provide (at least to a comparible level).

That was certainly why I dismissed the platform and never purchased it or attempted to build apps for it. Wintel is the platform, not just Windows.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#300

Post by mgalgs » Wed, Jan 06, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

Everyone keeps saying this is "a lot" of wasted resources... AFAICT it's just one guy right now, and even if it were a small team that still sounds like a bargain. I would expect it to take at least a small team within Apple to get Linux running on their new hardware.

I worked on SoC chip bring-up at Qualcomm for a few years and it's literally hundreds of engineers working for weeks to get Linux running, and that's with not only technical documentation but direct access to the hardware engineers who designed the stuff. That was 5 years ago but I assume not much has changed.

If this one guy (or a small group) ports Linux to the new MacBooks on a "Patreon salary" I'd say we got a smoking good deal. I'm rooting for them and happily donating.