HackerNewsers having a meltdown over the concept of a public apology.
So you've made a mistake and it's public
291–300 of 403 posts
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#292The number of people in this thread arguing that apologies can only make things worse is shocking. Are these the same people who reject addressing war crimes with truth and reconciliation, and instead advocate "deny everything, make counteraccusations"? A proper apology—one that (1) acknowledges the specific harm caused, (2) acknowledges responsibility and remorse for specific choices, (3) explains how they hope to m…
Regarding war crimes, here's a friendly reminder that they're almost exclusively addressed against black Africans despite the many war crimes committed by others - and usually those with far more global power. In fact, the United States has spread the logic that if their members or those of their allies were ever brought before such a court, they would invade the Hague and retrieve them (i.e., do another war crime).
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#293> So you've made a mistake and it's public People make mistakes. Not a big deal. > Step 0 Totally agree. > Step 1 The rest of these steps however is complete BS. Here’s generic answers. > What led you to make it? The rest of the data I had on the subject, so far. > Were you acting on bad information? Who precisely rates information as good or bad? > Without sufficient information? Sufficient for what? > Were you pres…
> Did you act on the basis of circumstances you wish were the case rather than the circumstances that are in fact the case?
This BTW is one of the most common source of mistakes I encounter. When offered choice between A and B, people routinely evaluate A in some ideal situation X which is not real, decide that A does not match this situation very well, and discard it, choosing B - while failing to notice that in real situation B is even further from achieving the desired outcome.
Example: we consider building option A and B for a feature of the product, and we know users like feature B much better, so we don't choose option A, even though we have neither resources not budget to actually implement B properly. As a result, we get half-implemented broken B instead of somewhat-less-liked but working A, and the users end up hating the whole thing. Seen it so many times.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#294The number of people in this thread arguing that apologies can only make things worse is shocking. Are these the same people who reject addressing war crimes with truth and reconciliation, and instead advocate "deny everything, make counteraccusations"? A proper apology—one that (1) acknowledges the specific harm caused, (2) acknowledges responsibility and remorse for specific choices, (3) explains how they hope to m…
The number of people in this thread arguing that apologies can only make things worse is shocking. Are these the same people who reject addressing war crimes with truth and reconciliation, and instead advocate "deny everything, make counteraccusations"? Are you new here? No, so you shouldn't be surprised by these techbro echo chamber responses?
I thought there was a decently-sized left contingent that could at least push back on them.
Alas.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. "The accused" is interesting framing. I would hope that no one expects the innocent but accused to apologize for something they didn't do. For the accused who are guilty, if we agree that denial is worse for society but currently better for the guilty, what can we do to change that, so that it is better for them to acknowledge fault and worse to remain in denial?
I think the crux of the issue is how powerful and unrelenting the internet mob has become. If there was a way to neuter this power, or better ensure the punishment enacted by the mob fits the crime, less people would advocate for denial. As it stands, public shaming often goes way overboard. For those interested in hearing more stories of this: https://www.ted.com/talks/jon_ronson_when_online_shaming_goe...
What is wrong with the public raising its expectations on public figures, companies, politicians, etc? This is what I read every time someone refers to the "internet mob". It's a bunch of normal people being loud on the internet over a perceived injustice with nothing particularly toxic compared to the injustices themselves or the way speech is curtailed in other contexts (you can't be frank with your boss most of the time, e.g.).
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#296Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thank you for your thoughtful response. "The accused" is interesting framing. I would hope that no one expects the innocent but accused to apologize for something they didn't do. For the accused who are guilty, if we agree that denial is worse for society but currently better for the guilty, what can we do to change that, so that it is better for them to acknowledge fault and worse to remain in denial?
> if we agree that denial is worse for society but currently better for the guilty, what can we do to change that Why is it worse for society? Guilt is already an emotion that exists for society, not for self-interest, it relies on morals, which all are learned through other people. If people are leaning more towards denial, it means that the cost for an individual to do something immoral is already too high, doesn't…
> If people are leaning more towards denial, it means that the cost for an individual to do something immoral is already too high
I have no idea where this idea comes from. People will attempt to avoid consequences even if those consequences are just.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#297I'm not sure apologizing publicly has made anything better for any individual, especially in the current moral panic climate. Mobs don't accept apologies. Public apologies stamp official guilt on the individual and therefore serve as a license for the mob to further punish them because now they have admitted their fault and therefore are 'officially' guilty of the crime. Public apologies, therefore, are the metaphori…
One of the bosses I had at a big bank told me the one thing she observed about successful people was that they never got hung up on mistakes. If they made a mistake, they just moved on as if it didn't happen, but would apologize if you asked sincerely one on one.
I think that's a pretty good middle ground. Apologizing too readily might also signal you lack self-respect or confidence which may invite even more vitriol.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#298I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she go…
Sorry to hear this story. Sounds like you’re over it, but maybe your younger self would have benefited from hearing this: https://twitter.com/JIMrichards1010/status/12391407105589698...
Wow can't believe that's from the start of Coronavirus outbreak, very prescient. What does this have to do with the topic though
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
>I find it helpful when writing apology posts ... How many apology posts do you write? Why would you need to write any? I don't understand why any apology needs to be public.
I ran a game company. There are lots of occasions where we made a change the players didn't like, or we screwed up in a way that led to economic damage to some players, or just had an operational issue that led to a bunch of downtime. Here is a random example of onee of these. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2603061/page/1
Incident reports such as this one are incredibly valuable for understanding what went wrong and deficiencies that need to be addressed, but also what went well (e.g. point-in-time rollback as effective mitigation).
The full timeline is valuable since you can look back on it and determine what went wrong when, so you can determine what changes need to happen to prevent these same issues in the future.
One thing I find is that incident reports such as these are most useful internally, but when communicated externally, they demonstrate that you're taking the underlying issues seriously and are committed to addressing them.
Re: So you've made a mistake and it's public
#300Earlier quoted context omitted.
It should be noted that you should contact them about their mistake in the most private way possible, then escalating slowly as the need arises. This follows the "praise in public, punish in private" maxim.
Gospel of Matthew, chapter 18: If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat…
Wow, guess he really didn't like tax collectors.