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Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

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Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#291

Post by [deleted] »

noelsusman wrote: post #165
victor106 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Positively, I work from home. I have four providers I could get 1Gbps symmetrical, unmetered, business-class FTTH for less than 100,- CHF / month. It's hard to go wrong with that. I pay 79.99 USD a month for Verizon Fios 1 gbps in nyc. That is before a $200.00 credit. Fios is FTTH. That’s a good 20-25% discount to what you pay in Switzerland. Plus I heard from several colleagues and friends who are people of color…

I know a Swiss expat living in America who moved here for that exact reason. His wife is Cuban, and they said they felt more at home and accepted in the US after a few months than they did after 10 years of living in Switzerland. They both loved Switzerland, but they cited the insular culture as the primary reason for leaving. His wife just couldn't handle it anymore.

[deleted]

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#292

Post by mtnGoat »

wannabedev2 wrote: post #231
greatgib wrote: post #53

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

I can chime in here, as I am very familiar with Zurich. While there are no extreme high compensations like for the top echelon SD in the SV top companies, the median, truly achievable wage is easy in excess of 120k annually. The housing prices are much lower than around SV, and most importantly, you do not have to live in the city, the public transport system network is very efficient, it is not essential to own a ca…

I am from the US but lived and worked in both Austria and Switzerland for years. There are a lot of contrasts between Europe and SV, the social benefits certainly help offset the extremely high wages of SV. Quality of life is certainly much better in Vienna and Zurich than SF/SV, but the opportunities in certain fields are limited.

that said... if i could get a job paying 80% of what i make now, in either city. i would move back and take it in a heartbeat, considering it was something remotely interesting.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#293

Post by balabaster »

Nursie wrote: post #275
balabaster wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for GitLab specifically, nor for the whole of Europe. I'm from the UK and living in Toronto (which seems vaguely comparable to SV in terms of income/cost of living). I generally keep a pretty close eye on the UK market and I can tell you that salaries for a senior developer job in the UK will compare, when accounting for the cost of living, to about a 75% pay cut against what I earn now. That's not to s…

Don't look at salaries, look at day rates. UK salaries are a joke, but you can make good money contracting and consulting.

With day rates you then have to start looking at VAT requirements though for inside and outside IR35 and given I haven't lived in the UK for 20 years, I'm not familiar with all the nuances this adds. I'd definitely need someone to coach me through that before I could speak with any authority on the subject.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#294

Post by headsupftw »

cactus2093 wrote: post #229
greatgib wrote: post #53

Bullshit alert They start with: "Maybe it is because of the outrageous rents eating over 30% of the salary and houses you cannot afford unless you joined Facebook or Google at the right time? " Regarding the SV. Then, this is what they (proudly) say about Switzerland: 1) "In Zurich, you can rent a whole flat (50+ square meters) for something between 2500-4000 CHF " 2) "In Switzerland a Software Developer can easily e…

Yeah this article is interesting. Cost of housing is basically being described as as high as the Bay Area, but the salaries sound quite a bit lower. Junior devs in SF are making maybe $110-130k, vs 60-90 that the article claims in switzerland. Senior devs are making maybe $180-220k, plus more in stock options/RSUs (which despite the negative reaction to them here on HN, actually do often turn into real money at least…

"plus more in stock options/RSUs (which despite the negative reaction to them here on HN, actually do often turn into real money at least at unicorns or public companies)"

I find that (the negative reaction to them here on HN) hilarious when it comes to RSUs of a publicly traded company such as Google and Facebook. They are absolutely unequivocally every bit as real as your salaries. Maybe it's just that people outside SV don't really understand the difference between options and RSUs. Before I came to SV I had never even heard of RSUs.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#295

Post by Nursie »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #289
Nursie wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never followed up on any of these because I'm not currently interested in leaving the UK. But a quick search of my inbox shows Graz is where most of the work is, and the latest rate I can find in any of the emails is €70 per hour. If I were to take on this work through my Ltd company it would translate to a salary equivalent of around £101,000 or $130,000 US. What you actually get out of it probably depends on y…

Damn, I live in Graz and work in the embedded field and never get any contracting offers in my inbox. Would you mind sharing some, maybe in private?

I've put my email address in my profile info, temporarily. Ping me and I'll happily forward you a few of the more recent ones.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#297

Post by Nursie »

balabaster wrote: post #293
Nursie wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't look at salaries, look at day rates. UK salaries are a joke, but you can make good money contracting and consulting.

With day rates you then have to start looking at VAT requirements though for inside and outside IR35 and given I haven't lived in the UK for 20 years, I'm not familiar with all the nuances this adds. I'd definitely need someone to coach me through that before I could speak with any authority on the subject.

Yeah you need to get an accountant (£100+ per month), insurance (£300-£500 per year) and be aware of the IR35 rules, which are all due to change in the next few months anyway, and who knows what happens with the whole Brexit thing.

It's definitely a more complicated way of working than being salaried, but it's rewarding, both monetarily and in the ability to set your own vacation allowances, take big gaps between contracts if you want to/can afford to etc etc.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#298

Post by burntoutfire »

aripickar wrote: post #217
burntoutfire wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4) Money is better in the US. I currently make about 160k USD, which is more than pretty much any European Dev will make. If you're contracting in London at 600 GBP per day (not an unreasonable amount for a senior in demand, it's very possible to get more than than), then assuming 2 weeks of vacation and 1 week of public holidays, you make 147k GBP, which amounts to $185k. You can make even more in Scandinavian cou…

Thats probably true, but thats someone at the top of the field in of the most expensive places to contract. I am very much not a senior engineer, I started as a new grad about 6 weeks ago.

I wouldn't say that you need to be at top of the field for that - just smart (smarter than you average dev I guess) and have 8-10 years of experience. Although to be true, I don't think people at the top of the field make more than $200k-$300k (assuming the field is in demand), and these are rather uncommon cases - I imagine that is much more rarer than the same money in the US.

On the other hand, pretty great deals can be had in Europe as well - I'm currently sitting in Poland making $160k, with low costs of living and taxes. Would need to probably make twice that much in California for the same lifestyle and yearly savings.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#299

Post by ThePadawan »

Sure.

Now name any Swiss company that makes software that you heard of before.

I'll wait.

Switzerland is eager to compare itself to Silicon Valley as a center for education and innovation, but I have lived here for 11 years and I can tell you that that comparison is utter horse shit. Why?

Because Switzerland, as a tiny neutral country, most of all lacks ambition. You can't make it as a small company with lots of ideas.

You couldn't pay the salaries for talent - the talent can earn double or triple working in private banking, insurance of big pharma.

Or maybe the talent already moved away since very few companies can afford to even open offices in Switzerland, or if they do, they are sales only. Google, Microsoft and IBM are the biggest exceptions in the Zurich area.

Re: Switzerland vs Silicon Valley for Software Developers

#300

Post by stkdump »

victor106 wrote: post #89
lukeqsee wrote: post #3

I'm an American expat in Switzerland working as an independent software developer and startup founder. I can agree with a lot of the points listed in the article, but they apply universally to almost all jobs (not just to software developers). I would raise a few points it doesn't mention: - Negatively, it is much harder to find meetups close to you that apply to you. Unless you're based in Zürich (the tech hub of th…

> Positively, I work from home. I have four providers I could get 1Gbps symmetrical, unmetered, business-class FTTH for less than 100,- CHF / month. It's hard to go wrong with that. I pay 79.99 USD a month for Verizon Fios 1 gbps in nyc. That is before a $200.00 credit. Fios is FTTH. That’s a good 20-25% discount to what you pay in Switzerland. Plus I heard from several colleagues and friends who are people of color…

Germans face racism in Switzerland
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