Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

daringfireball.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 388 posts

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#291

Post by dannyr »

coldtea wrote: post #289
artfulhippo wrote: post #2

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

> Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. What veracity? He is a businessman in a trillion dollar company. He says what pleases the market -- the domestic and the foreign one, not his personal beliefs... The first priority is always profits or growth. If one sincerely cared for the environment fo…

Part of Apple's image that earned it loyal customers is that they care more about their customers than most other companies. Apple doesn't sell your data, it protects your privacy, will fight government agencies asking for user's data, etc.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#292

Post by idlewords »

germainelol wrote: post #162
threeseed wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This app specifically lists where the police are. That is its primary purpose. Comparing it to Facebook or Snapchat makes absolutely no sense.

Dude, in HK the police raise are legally obliged to raise flags to warn the public of things such as firing tear gas, dispersing crowds, illegal assembly etc. They will also post on Twitter to notify the public where and when they will disperse the public. The HK police force wants the public to know where they are, so in the context of HK, banning this app is kind of ridiculous. Considering the brutality of the HK p…

Underrated comment

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#293

Post by idlewords »

mercutio2 wrote: post #110
dmix wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not ban Waze for their police reporting feature?

Is police reporting illegal in the countries in which Waze operates? I don’t buy that HKMap did anything illegal, but asking for equivalence with an app which is doing something vaguely similar in a jurisdiction where any of those things are perfectly legal seems to be missing the point.

Hong Kong law is very similar to American law. Don't confuse Hong Kong with China. The parallel to Waze is a good one.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#294

Post by idlewords »

Despegar wrote: post #26

Gruber is taking Ceglowski and HKmap.live's comments at face value, but they aren't disinterested actors. They both have (admirable) agendas in the pro-democracy protests. Of course they're going to characterize the app in the best light possible (it's so you can avoid the protests and avoid inadvertently running into cops). Apple most likely did get legitimate examples of the app being used for that, and that was al…

People who disagree with my characterization of the app can still ask themselves why Tim Cook can't point to any Hong Kong law the app contravenes, even thought he claims it is illegal.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#295

Post by shakna »

truth0seeker wrote: post #278
shakna wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. The problem with Apple's, and many other companies, early response policies is it depends on the source of truth, such as the police, not being complicit. If they always wait for a court order, PR disasters happen, and polticians dredge up 'think of the children' arguments. If they don't wait for an order they can become part of the machinery of ill-intentioned polticial or commercial forces. Damned if th…

I totally agree. But there is a point you may not aware. Government, law enforcement and court are not separated in China, they all belonging to the same central government. So if you really want a court order, they’ll issue one quickly. That’s the tricky situation. Companies must obey local laws, but local laws are built on behalf of central government, and court exists for protecting central government.

That's fine, but Apple acted without one being issued. Which made them the arbiter, rather than the Chinese officials.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#296

Post by idlewords »

anonimouse1234a wrote: post #227

Thor’s way account for obvious reasons. I am an Apple employee (Cupertino) and I did not receive this email. It also reads different than other Tim emails, which never mention specific things such as credible reports and the language seems off. I also did not here any colleagues mention such an email, and usually it pops up for everyone at the same time and it becomes a topic. This email pastebin is a fake

I was told by multiple Apple employees that it is genuine. Check your spam folder.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#297

Post by PavlovsCat »

baddox wrote: post #269
PavlovsCat wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even the devil's advocate [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_advocate ] is supposed to cite facts and reason properly -- not claim a falsehood in support of the devil, which misrepresenting the article is. You can't just precede anything with "just playing devil's advocate for a moment" and make it immune from scrutiny, that's the intellectual equivalent of "just a prank". From the WP article, emphasis mine: >…

I welcome scrutiny, and I disagree with this particular scrutiny.

I could have just done the same, and just say "I disagree" without making an argument, but that's not really much of a discussion is it.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#298

Post by imihai1988 »

baddox wrote: post #27
dictum wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not intimate enough with any of the parties involved in this situation, so my reply will also be comfortably generic: Yes, it's a reasonable demand. If public opinion is asking something of Apple, and its CEO chooses to answer, every aspect of the answer is open to scrutiny. Gruber indeed lists the specific evidence he would expect: > - When was HKmap.live “used maliciously to target individual officers for viole…

I'm just not sure what that evidence could look like. Like I said, don't we have sufficient evidence that this app was used to organize protests in Hong Kong, and that some protesters in Hong Kong committed violence against officers and against individuals and property where no police were present? As for Hong Kong law, I can agree that it might be nice to cite a specific law, but I also don't find it at all difficul…

That is not what the application does though. it is not "being used to organize anti-government protests". that is not the reason it was removed. it was a map with icons. by that logic any and all communications apps ( telegram especially) would be outside the law because you can organize protests using them, way better than using icons on a map.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#299

Post by throwaway744678 »

smueller1234 wrote: post #272
neurostimulant wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren't foreign companies not allowed to operate in China without partnering with local companies? I think most (if not all) companies that sell services and digital products (online games, etc) operate this way.

That's not the only possible model. You can also have wholly foreign owned Chinese subsidiaries in the free trade zone if you get the appropriate licenses granted. Forgot the details though, sorry. That setup is apparently relatively "easy" for trade with physical goods, our lawyers told us some years ago, but wanting to do e-commerce without selling physical items meant all sorts of additional licenses had to be sou…

> That setup is apparently relatively "easy" for trade with physical goods, our lawyers told us some years ago, [...]

As someone who is going through this process currently (WFOE), the easiness of the thing was probably exaggerated by your lawyers ;). The most annoying thing is that it is quite hard to get a definitive answer of the kind of licenses one needs, who grants them, and especially the criteria to meet.

Post reply on HN