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Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

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Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#291

Post by tptacek »

pvg wrote: post #290
tptacek wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your argument is a lefty fever dream, I just think there's a mainstream good-faith argument that rebuts it. More important to me, though, is that CFPB is essentially the DHS of finance (a Voltron agency that centralizes a bunch of random oversight authorities that already existed) and neither the CFPB's enacting legislation (in Dodd-Frank) nor any of the extent authorities CFPB draws on appear to give i…

I should have been clearer about the monoatomic diamond tip of my nitpickery - I just mean that your description of the argument is, come si dice , non-NPOV. That's both fake Latin and Wikipedia jargon, I've caught the Golden Snitch, +150 me, I win. I don't think the specifics are some glaring example of trumpian norm-breaking or corruption or whatnot, either.

Come si dice is Italian, not Latin!

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#292

Post by pvg »

tptacek wrote: post #291
pvg wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should have been clearer about the monoatomic diamond tip of my nitpickery - I just mean that your description of the argument is, come si dice , non-NPOV. That's both fake Latin and Wikipedia jargon, I've caught the Golden Snitch, +150 me, I win. I don't think the specifics are some glaring example of trumpian norm-breaking or corruption or whatnot, either.

Come si dice is Italian, not Latin!

Italian is the original fake Latin.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#293

Post by neveroffensive »

Arbalest wrote: post #266
neveroffensive wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no such thing as "financial freedom". Financial freedom is a concept that arises from personal beliefs and practices. There is only one universal freedom, the freedom of chioce. I think this is more important than any 21st century pay day lending problem. We need to preserve free choice not just for our generation/set of problems, but for all time. Edit: Don't confuse living a long, healthy, happy life with…

No, absolutely not. Choice in its purest form is and always was an illusion. People are driven by their circumstances and their environment, they do not have a consciousness that is capable of perceiving and acting apart from the world they live in. Jean-Paul Satre make a very cute case for Radical Freedom, but it is little more than a thought experiment. Ultimately people would prefer to know that things are going t…

I believe universal justice exists. I believe you can quantify justice. I think at the end of the day you and I are both right, and both wrong. We hold utterly different perspectives on life, choice, and freedom. These may be irreconcilable. For example, I genuinely believe depression can be cured by "not being depressed".

Edit:

What if I want to live my life paycheck to paycheck? What if none of what you just described about freedom from the emotional stress of finances matters to me? What right do you have to force me to make the "right" choices and be financially responsible? Why shouldn't I be allowed to hurt myself?

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#294

Post by Arbalest »

neveroffensive wrote: post #293
Arbalest wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, absolutely not. Choice in its purest form is and always was an illusion. People are driven by their circumstances and their environment, they do not have a consciousness that is capable of perceiving and acting apart from the world they live in. Jean-Paul Satre make a very cute case for Radical Freedom, but it is little more than a thought experiment. Ultimately people would prefer to know that things are going t…

I believe universal justice exists. I believe you can quantify justice. I think at the end of the day you and I are both right, and both wrong. We hold utterly different perspectives on life, choice, and freedom. These may be irreconcilable. For example, I genuinely believe depression can be cured by "not being depressed". Edit: What if I want to live my life paycheck to paycheck? What if none of what you just descri…

With respect to your edit, for those who have limited resources: I would suggest anyone who has taken on responsibilities is unlikely to think in a matter in which anything can be ignored, and anyone who is without responsibility is probably already disconnected enough from society that they can probably get what they want many other ways. It is the former that we try to protect, the latter doesn't care to be protected anyway. In terms of managing a society, the former is a far greater priority than the latter. The former is probably also the majority.

As for your statement about differing perspectives, I would argue that I'm talking about solutions for present problems, ie the practical side, whereas you talk about what should be, which may require a very large transition period, and thus is not useful at this point in time.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#295

Post by jessaustin »

CydeWeys wrote: post #275
jessaustin wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes there is a difference and that's why these borrowers can't get a credit card. (If the rules for credit card interest rates were relaxed, they could, not that I'm advocating that...) It is trivial to simply observe that some borrowers pay higher rates than others.

The question boils down to, where should the line be drawn as to how badly of a deal someone should be able to opt themselves into.

That is one question, but another is can the law really enforce something like this. Just as drug prohibition has not eliminated the sale and use of prohibited drugs, usury prohibition has never put loan sharks out of business. Actually it has the opposite effect. 'Twere ever thus.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#296

Post by towelr34dy »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #282
towelr34dy wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except... we have regulations. It's state by state. Meaning, the laws adapt to the needs of the people of each state. The new laws would have removed 90% of the industry, including my ability to have participated. I fully supported the limitation of debiting end user accounts, which was part of the legislation. I'm completely against the need to 'verify someone can pay'... which I read as basically requiring credit s…

I wonder why payday loans are widely regarded as predatory if existing regulations are sufficient.

Because they are.

But that doesn't stop making them a service.

Listen, if you could figure out how to charge even 40% yearly interest on a $100 one week loan (i.e. you'll make $0.7 gross) then you should do it and offer a better service.

Restricting people from accessing the service because you read some outrage entertainment (the news) is not good. To be clear, that is what this law did.

It's like lottery. It's basically a tax on the poor. I hate it. But if it was overly regulated, we'd see the numbers racket come up again. And personally, I prefer regulated markets over black markets.

And to be clear; I think lottery should be further regulated by limiting advertising, and even creating an opt out system for problem gamblers. But if a legislation was passed that had those elements WITH elements that would drive the industry underground, I'd 100% be against it.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#297

Post by neveroffensive »

Arbalest wrote: post #294
neveroffensive wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe universal justice exists. I believe you can quantify justice. I think at the end of the day you and I are both right, and both wrong. We hold utterly different perspectives on life, choice, and freedom. These may be irreconcilable. For example, I genuinely believe depression can be cured by "not being depressed". Edit: What if I want to live my life paycheck to paycheck? What if none of what you just descri…

With respect to your edit, for those who have limited resources: I would suggest anyone who has taken on responsibilities is unlikely to think in a matter in which anything can be ignored, and anyone who is without responsibility is probably already disconnected enough from society that they can probably get what they want many other ways. It is the former that we try to protect, the latter doesn't care to be protect…

> The former is probably also the majority

I think we also would disagree on the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few.

> for present problems, ie the practical side

I see your point here, but we can't lose sight of the big picture. Compromising in the short term, no matter how many people it might help, seems like a bad idea to me.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#298

Post by webninja »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #48

So regarding the idea of charging high rates to compensate for the extra risk Looking at the St Louis Fed (I assume a good source of data) [ https://fred.stlouisfed.org/categories/32440 ] credit card defaults average around 5% and mortgage defaults at 2.5% (handwaving 2008 recession) So ... even with my bad maths ... if I am going to get 95% of all my loans back, I need to charge the 95% and extra 5.25% to break even…

This article or mentions loans being given interest rates of 390% and 80%. When I went to get a quote on one when I had a 700 credit score at the time, I was quoted 120%/year which was framed as 10%/month. Over 10 years, a 10k loan at 10%/month compounds into a whopping $927,090,688.18!!! These people are just preying off poor people’s financial illiteracy!

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#299

Post by Bud »

dang wrote: post #277
Bud wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes, Austrian "economists". Some of the most-noted quacks in world history.

Could you please not post flamebait to HN? It doesn't matter how right you are, it damages the site.

Please feel free to delete my ill-advised comment. I apologize.

Re: Consumer Protection Bureau Aims to Roll Back Rules for Payday Lending

#300

Post by quickben »

towelr34dy wrote: post #273
quickben wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"I'm very happy there was a lender of last resort that won't break my legs" All of your support and encouragement of a superbly predatory practice comes from that line. You were happy that nobody broke your legs. Do compare that with the history of slavery, where outside of conquest, people became slaves because they couldn't fulfill their financial obligations. > "I mean, no where do they seem to be hinting at crea…

Ah the outrage mob. So tell me, oh wise one; how do you deal with people who need a lender of last resort? I mean, in your kind, humanitarian and knowledgeable opinion that takes into consideration the reality of people with cash flow issues?

The reality is that instead of people going to a public kitchen , or a shelter, they will get even more in the hole, financial and social.

Why are you so interested in getting the vulnerable category even more indebted?

>"oh wise one"

You'll have a hard time in life with that attitude.

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