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Let Teenagers Sleep In

nytimes.com

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Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#291

Post by IC4RUS »

Aeolun wrote: post #162
IC4RUS wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like of a 'just so' story, as evolution is not usually considered to act at the group level, but instead at the individual level: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_selection And some evolutionary biologists, like Dawkins, argues that it really acts on genes rather than the individual. So, I might be missing some of the claim, but I find it unlikely that teenagers would stay up later to be away from adul…

Maybe so. But if it happens in all cultures across the globe (which is verifiable), then there must be ‘some’ cause. Even if we don’t know it.

That's true, but the core explanation is not likely to be what the original poster described.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#292

Post by st26 »

bootlooped wrote: post #227
emodendroket wrote: post #31

> Changing the operating hours of an institution so central to the community is far from easy. It requires strong leadership and adjustments by school bus companies and businesses offering services like child care and extracurricular clubs. Here's the elephant in the room. High schools start and end earlier with the idea that older kids can watch their siblings. I'd say a lack of public commitment to child care is al…

I have a suspicion that after-school sports is one of the reasons school starts so early. If high school let out between 5 and 6 pm, then that would leave not as much time for sports. There is a high school in Texas with a $72 million dollar stadium. That should be indicative of where the priorities are.

Not as much time indeed, in December where I live sundown is at 1630.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#293

Post by dest »

scrollaway wrote: post #206
devxpy wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allow me to back this up with an actual piece of research. Here is an excerpt from the book "Why we sleep" (which BTW is written by a neuroscientist and psychology prof working at the Center for Human Sleep Science ) > An adult’s owlness or larkness, also known as their chronotype, is strongly determined by genetics. If you are a night owl, it’s likely that one (or both) of your parents is a night owl. Sadly, society…

I'm a non-24 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake... ). I consistently drift forwards 1-2 hours / day. Nobody believes me when I tell them. I started seriously tracking my sleep a few months back, and two months ago I started to use "Sleep as Android", which has a neat feature that shows you a graph of the times you are asleep. This is mine for the past 2 months: https://i.imgur.com/PHohyO6.…

Relevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/320/

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#294

Post by namibj »

barry-cotter wrote: post #37
adamnemecek wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are apprenticeships for programming and electrical engineering.

Can you link to the electrical engineering apprenticeship? To confirm the obvious you don’t mean an electrician apprenticeship, right? Edit: Never mind Electrical Engineering https://www.ausbildung.de/berufe/elektrotechniker/ Electrician https://www.ausbildung.de/berufe/elektroniker/

You seem to mix them up. Elektrik == Big motors, house wiring etc. Elektronik == vacuum tubes or semiconductors in circuits

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#295

Post by monort »

scrollaway wrote: post #206
devxpy wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allow me to back this up with an actual piece of research. Here is an excerpt from the book "Why we sleep" (which BTW is written by a neuroscientist and psychology prof working at the Center for Human Sleep Science ) > An adult’s owlness or larkness, also known as their chronotype, is strongly determined by genetics. If you are a night owl, it’s likely that one (or both) of your parents is a night owl. Sadly, society…

I'm a non-24 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake... ). I consistently drift forwards 1-2 hours / day. Nobody believes me when I tell them. I started seriously tracking my sleep a few months back, and two months ago I started to use "Sleep as Android", which has a neat feature that shows you a graph of the times you are asleep. This is mine for the past 2 months: https://i.imgur.com/PHohyO6.…

I used to sleep like this for many years, though I shifted a little less than one hour per day, my full circle was around a month. What fixed it for me:

1) Getting out every day, even when I don't have to.

2) Using alarm for going to sleep, not for waking up.

3) I think this is the main one - I've got some social obligations, so I needed to be awake during the day.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#296

Post by zo1 »

philwelch wrote: post #243
zo1 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be all for that, as long as there were negative penalties as well. E.g. Disturbing class = no points. Failing homework = no points. Failing test = losing all accumulated points. Failing end of year exams for the subject = lose all money for that subject. I.e. Attendance is only part of the equation, actually fostering learning/growth is what you really want, even if it's semi-artificial. Otherwise you're just mak…

The problem with that is that low-income families either plain can't afford, or tend to be completely bad at delaying gratification for long-term rewards.

Agreed. Education by itself and the benefits it gives are very long term, too. So this payment has benefit in that it's a quicker return than plain education and would impact a net amount of people. Perhaps there may even be network effects in that those that are able to plan for this medium-term returns can convince and be examples for those that aren't able to.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#297

Post by emodendroket »

bootlooped wrote: post #227
emodendroket wrote: post #31

> Changing the operating hours of an institution so central to the community is far from easy. It requires strong leadership and adjustments by school bus companies and businesses offering services like child care and extracurricular clubs. Here's the elephant in the room. High schools start and end earlier with the idea that older kids can watch their siblings. I'd say a lack of public commitment to child care is al…

I have a suspicion that after-school sports is one of the reasons school starts so early. If high school let out between 5 and 6 pm, then that would leave not as much time for sports. There is a high school in Texas with a $72 million dollar stadium. That should be indicative of where the priorities are.

Texas is a bit of an outlier.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#298

Post by detaro »

earthnail wrote: post #103
bosie wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why it wouldn't work for "fast" changing fields like programming as well. The basics are the basics. Learn the basics at school and the day-to-day activities through the apprenticeship? Not sure what else would be better than the dual-system

It‘s just an observation. The apprenticeship system stems from the old guilds. There is no support yet for learning programming that way. It will take a while, the system evolves very slowly.

You can become a web designer/developer through apprenticeship at least. And there's the "dual studium" ideas that at least follow a similar model in some ways, which a bunch of large technical companies offer.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#299

Post by mcovey »

scrollaway wrote: post #206
devxpy wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allow me to back this up with an actual piece of research. Here is an excerpt from the book "Why we sleep" (which BTW is written by a neuroscientist and psychology prof working at the Center for Human Sleep Science ) > An adult’s owlness or larkness, also known as their chronotype, is strongly determined by genetics. If you are a night owl, it’s likely that one (or both) of your parents is a night owl. Sadly, society…

I'm a non-24 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-24-hour_sleep%E2%80%93wake... ). I consistently drift forwards 1-2 hours / day. Nobody believes me when I tell them. I started seriously tracking my sleep a few months back, and two months ago I started to use "Sleep as Android", which has a neat feature that shows you a graph of the times you are asleep. This is mine for the past 2 months: https://i.imgur.com/PHohyO6.…

I also think I'm non-24. Unfortunately its only considered a real disorder in the blind. Taking melatonin helps a bit -- I'm convinced my pineal gland is broken somehow.

Re: Let Teenagers Sleep In

#300

Post by pkelly2505 »

On my way to work today I saw a couple of school buses picking up students at about 6:45. Now if you think that's too early and we should have schools open later, I see a real problem. By law where I live, all traffic, in both directions, has to stop when school buses pick up kids. Put those buses on the road between 8:00 and 9:00 and the already horrible rush hour traffic would get way worse. Along with making everyone's commute longer, every school bus route would take longer. Students would have to be picked up earlier relative to the school's opening time to allow for the slower traffic.
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