Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

lore.kernel.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 1001 posts

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#291

Post by arkades »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #281
blazespin wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key, I find, is to be extremely direct and brutal in one on ones. Don't hold back, but be very supportive and positive when more than two people present. I try to explain this to be people I work with, but I don't think everyone appreciates it. Horrible people, in my opinion, are those that do the opposite.

So, being nicer when someone else is watching and could corroborate , while being brutal to people when it's your word against theirs? I wonder why people don't appreciate that advice. "Direct" does not need to go hand-in-hand with "brutal". Don't change your behavior based on who's watching; people deserve to be treated well regardless. EDIT: For clarity, I'm not necessarily suggesting this is the intention, but rat…

I mean, you did just spin it into its worst interpretation. I read the grandparent post as meaning, "Be brutal when the least ego / public stature is at risk, but never cut people down in front of their peers."

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#292

Post by gedy »

jerrysievert wrote: post #191
HaoZeke wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Contributor Covenant is basically just a lot of publicity grabbing faux FOSS addition. I mean if you can't contribute code why simply mess around with things like the Code of Conduct.

why write tests? why improve ux or ui? why help with documentation? > I mean if you can't contribute code why simply mess around with things like the Code of Conduct. there are many more parts to a community, even a community of developers, than just contributing code.

> there are many more parts to a community, even a community of developers, than just contributing code.

True, but OSS and business software development is frequently short-handed in people who can actually make the software, not the planners, organizers, etc.

The political debate gets polarizing because many of the "makers" think it's a lack of skill, and the other side comes across as blaming the maker's attitudes/community/etc.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#293

Post by tux1968 »

alkonaut wrote: post #164
sz4kerto wrote: post #71

We should also keep in mind that the fact that he's trying to change his behavior does not mean that it has been counterproductive overall for Linux over the last three decades. It might not be optimal now for leading kernel development, or it might not be optimal for him as a person. However, this introspection really does not mean that Linux would have been more successful if he'd been nicer in the past. Maybe yes,…

I don’t like the whole “to make an omelette you have to break some eggs” excuse. If you can’t create something without hurting people then don’t create it. Yes everyone calling out LT being an asshat has been right, from day 1.

You might not like it, but it might be true; we don't actually know for sure. What we do know, is that someone with Linus' personality and character traits is the person who did get this monumental thing accomplished for the betterment of the world.

Until Jimmy-never-says-anything-mean does the same, we won't have a useful counterexample to shift the evidence toward your preference.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#294

Post by mcguire »

joatmon-snoo wrote: post #100
_wldu wrote: post #43

Way to go Linus... this is a great lesson for all of us! It's easy to get caught-up in the heat of the moment and say and do things that we regret. We've all done it. It's part of being human. The key is to realize it, apologize and do better.

More importantly, many thanks and congratulations to the folks who finally changed his mind.

I wonder what that discussion was like. It's not as if no one ever mentioned the subject to him before.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#295

Post by twtw »

hoosieree wrote: post #260
cowmoo728 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of Linus's more colorful rants: "Of course, I'd also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE F CKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the f ck does idiotic things like that? How did they noty die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?"

This is somewhat ironic considering Linux is written in C, which is the most stubbornly "one thing at a time" language in widespread use today.

It's not ironic at all. C doesn't not do anything promoting a syscall per byte. Even if you think that's what you are doing, libc is probably buffering for you behind the scenes.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#296

Post by everdev »

jakeinspace wrote: post #257

Linus is stubborn, persistent, and unyielding to what he sees as bullshit. These I believe are all very valuable qualities for the head of a massive software project, and may be part of the reason as to why Linux is where it is today. However, Linus is also a bit of an asshole, turning technical criticism into personal seemingly personal attacks. I believe those 2 sets of qualities are separable, but I would guess it…

Very true, but as the recipients we risk misunderstanding rude and intimidating behavior as strength or stubbornness as confidence.

When we elevate and accept these behaviors we all lose.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#297

Post by ezoe »

> And yes, some of it might be "just" tooling. Maybe I can get an email > filter in place so at when I send email with curse-words, they just > won't go out. Because hey, I'm a big believer in tools, and at least > _some_ problems going forward might be improved with simple > automation.

Strictly following the virtues of the programmer, I guess.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#298

Post by mcguire »

wolfgke wrote: post #121
JoshTriplett wrote: post #106

The other huge news here, both for Linux and for numerous other communities trying to make similar changes: The most recent commit, right before the release, deletes Linux's "Code of Conflict" and replaces it with a real Code of Conduct, the Contributor Covenant. https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/lin... https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-condu... Quoting the commit message:…

> It just means not letting things turn heated or hateful, and treating people well. Different people have very different beliefs what is to be considered "heated", "hateful" and "treating well" or not.

Attacking ideas is fine.

Attacking people is not.

There are fine gradations that are open for interpretation.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#299

Post by Chazprime »

meowface wrote: post #147
wolfgke wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It just means not letting things turn heated or hateful, and treating people well. Different people have very different beliefs what is to be considered "heated", "hateful" and "treating well" or not.

I don't think the language of the Contributor Covenant [1] contains anything really objectionable by anyone, even people who wouldn't consider themselves left-leaning. "Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks" is arguably the only ambiguous part. That said, I am a bit skeptical of the CC creators' motives and goals. [1] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-con...

I’m very skeptical of the CC creator’s motivations as well, but ultimately its application is only as insidious as the body that adopts it and enforces it.

Re: Linus Torvalds apologizes for his behavior, takes time off

#300

Post by JoshTriplett »

tomp wrote: post #279
DC-3 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The contributor covenant is fairly in-objectionable. Yes, the list of 'privileges' is a bit of a checklist for left-wing soapboxes, but it's not necessarily a bad thing to explicitly list traits commonly targeted by bullies and harassers. The problem many people have with it, as you imply, is that it's the thin end of a doorstop, at the thick end of which is the Post-Meritocracy Manifesto: https://postmeritocracy.org…

> but it's not necessarily a bad thing to explicitly list traits commonly targeted by bullies and harassers. I see a big problem by them omitting protection for people of different political opinions (whereas e.g. religion, which is essentially opinion, is protected).

That's a common problem, and one heavily abused and weaponized.

If you want to argue about the level of taxation, the right size of government, regulations on business, whether public or private is the most efficient way to accomplish a goal, or myriad other areas of policy like those, go right ahead. Those kinds of things are absolutely reasonable subjects for healthy and reasonable debate. (They're rarely on-topic for a software project, but in some types of communities, or in companies, or in random side conversations, sometimes they are.) Those are almost never the kinds of political opinions that people have in mind when they're suggesting that "political opinions" should be an explicitly protected category, though.

It's funny how the people worried most about whether they'll feel unwelcome for their political opinions are often those whose political opinions revolve around making others unwelcome, or hurting others, or questioning (or asking with superficial politeness about) others' right to exist. Those kind of "political opinions" do not and should not get any protections, in a code of conduct or anywhere else. You're legally allowed to say them, but you should not expect to do so without any consequence.

Post reply on HN