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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#291

Post by ddalex »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #12
ellius wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I am not following this especially closely, but my understanding is that the vote represented a minority of the population and was done outside of legal channels. Your last question is really the most pertinent issue as far as what happens next—does the citizenry really care about this, and deeply? Or is it more of a power play drummed up by local political leaders?

It was done “outside of legal channels” in the sense that it’s not possible to do it “within legal channels”. I have no particular view on the outcome of this, but the fact that upwards of half a million protestors turned out in Barcelona suggests that it’s an important issue.

> outside of legal channels

My understanding is that the polls were not universal, but only ran in the Catalonia areas with strong support for independence. And there was no vote security and verification, in fact, people were encouraged to vote multiple times in the same referendum.

So the referendum could not be construed as legal.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#292

Post by marcosdumay »

pjc50 wrote: post #51
icebraining wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next Catalan elections will be a referendum by another name, no? Obviously without legal force, but if the parties for independence win big, it'll be hard to claim it's for any other reason - and the same for the parties against it.

I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't any more Catalan elections or the independence parties were banned from standing in them.

That's a coup of the Spanish State, isn't it?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#293

Post by sangnoir »

simlevesque wrote: post #247
narag wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop talking of Catalonia as if there were only one opinion. At least half of catalans don't want independence.

They should have voted then.

Why legitimize a non-constitutional process you disagree with? I would stay home too.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#294

Post by pm90 »

jerf wrote: post #259
platz wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then, what tactics does civilization require in order to hold together?

Well, that sounds like a book. But despite the failure, I'd point to Brexit as an example where there was a conflict that was still broadly speaking handled in a civilized manner. If I recall correctly, the EU never said that if the UK left, they would take steps to liquidate Parliament. It was (and is!) an acrimonious debate, but still a civilized one (contrary to apparently popular belief, "nice" and "civilized" ar…

I don't think Brexit is a good example because the EU never was a Sovereign, united state in the same way that, say, the US is. The UK already has its own independently functional institutions, separate from the EU, and an international recognition and identity outside of EU. Not the same as Catalan province.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#295

Post by pvaldes »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

> Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal

Not, this is a lie. Was not the government that declared it illegal. Were the judges of the hightest spanish tribunal, because in their opinion this is a disguised coup against constitution.

> Once they had the massive yes vote the only way out to the evil government is to surrender and negociate...

Another thousand times repeated lie. Because 2 million of votes (including X people voting n>1 times) is now the 90% of 46 million of people (including 7,5 million of catalonian people).

Lets suppose, for example, that some people would want to reinstall the slavery to Louisiana, or to bring comunism to Nebraska. "Would be good for the economy" they say. So they require to ask people for "blah blah blah democracy". Let suppose that they declare that if the referendum is positive, all black people will lose their properties and be slaves again, "because blah blah blah, pacifism". And they want you to pay this circus with your tax money, because their shamelessness is infinite.

And then some people ask that government should allow this, because voting is good.

Should the government "embrace" this spoiled children acts and let them to steal millions of dollars in their face?.

Everybody can promote a referendum to ask people their opinion about anything, but with their money, without using public buildings and resources and without shamelessly declaring that the results from the poll will trigger a chain of illegal abuses and changes for most of the people in the zone.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#296

Post by johnnyfaehell »

PeachPlum wrote: post #167
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK government did exactly that and got a no vote to the Scottish independence. The Brexit vote was full-on farce, people literally had no idea what they were voting yes to. How could they, there was no plan.

The plan was laid out clearly. The question asked of the electorate was also clear. February 2016 The process for withdrawing from the European Union Presented to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs by Command of Her Majesty https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm... 2.1 The result of the referendum on the UK’s membership of the European Union will be final.…

21 pages, is not a plan. The Scottish independence plan was 500 pages or something.

Also, that "plan" merely states they will trigger article 50. Not what they will do after that. Which is the important part of the whole process. There was no talk of soft or hard brexit. No talk of how much it would cost, no talk about anything other than "We'll trigger article 50". Which it actually turned out, the plan was flawed because they legally couldn't do it and had to create a new law.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#297

Post by Quinner »

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

The only violence to be feared was committed by Spanish police, there specifically to suppress the vote.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#299

Post by jerf »

pm90 wrote: post #294
jerf wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that sounds like a book. But despite the failure, I'd point to Brexit as an example where there was a conflict that was still broadly speaking handled in a civilized manner. If I recall correctly, the EU never said that if the UK left, they would take steps to liquidate Parliament. It was (and is!) an acrimonious debate, but still a civilized one (contrary to apparently popular belief, "nice" and "civilized" ar…

I don't think Brexit is a good example because the EU never was a Sovereign, united state in the same way that, say, the US is. The UK already has its own independently functional institutions, separate from the EU, and an international recognition and identity outside of EU. Not the same as Catalan province.

I'm citing it just as a similar debate that was handled without the same drastic errors that Spain made, not that it parallels Catalan's debate in any other particular way. At least as of this writing, peaceful secessions involving voting for secession is still a rare enough thing that they are all unique snowflakes. (Ask me again in 10 years.) I'm sure the EU made errors; I mean, that's almost a vacuous statement because there are always errors. (Pro-Brexit made errors too; also equally a nearly vacuous statement.) But there were nowhere near this drastic.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#300

Post by ctdonath »

platz wrote: post #214
jerf wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You need to read history to understand the situation." That is true if we want to analyze the question of whether or not Catalan "should" be independent from Spain, a question so murky and shot through with political philosophy, theory, and pragmatics that even two sides that stipulate all the same facts can come to different conclusions. But for what johnnyfaehell was really getting at, which is a tactical and/or s…

So then, what tactics does civilization require in order to hold together?

The US constitution has worked quite well (despite our penchant for drama) for a couple centuries. Oversimplified: recognize states as semi-autonomous, localize governance as much as possible, balance voting power to prevent "tyranny of the majority", emphasize individual rights & liberty. Too much of bossing around others does not end well.
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