I have no side code projects to show you • Hacker News Board

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#291

Post by neverartful » Thu, Oct 26, 2017, 2:00 AM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #75

kelnos wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're espousing a false dichotomy. The options in evaluating a candidate aren't merely "give them whiteboard coding problems" or "examine their side projects". Give them a take-home assignment. Give them an in-person assignment where they have several hours to complete a smallish design-and-build task. There are a lot more options, and I'm getting tired of people claiming they don't know how to evaluate technical ca…

Giving a candidate a "take-home assignment" is actually the most disrespectful of the options listed. Unless you're an awesome company, with really cool projects and offering me a jaw dropping salary and benefits, then no, I'm not going to do free work for you. Even if you are an awesome company, people probably have to actually work for you to see that, so no, I'm not going to do free work for you. I'd rather spend…

I largely agree, but I have had one experience that opens a tiny bit of wiggle room for such assignments. During a phone interview with hiring manager, he asked me if I had experience with X, Y, or Z open source projects (all relevant to the team). I told him that I did not, but that I'm always eager to learn new things. He asked me to pick one of them and 'build something' that uses it (no more specific than that). I instantly recoiled at the idea, but I didn't verbalize it. I went along with it. I decided to take the 'when given a lemon...' point of view and build something that was of interest to me.

A few weeks later I came onsite for in-person interview. I brought up the assignment and was able to use it to show my interest and capability of quickly learning and putting something to use. I really believe it worked to my advantage.

If the assignment were to implement something very specific I would not have done it. In my case the assignment was so completely open-ended and was able to convince myself that it wasn't a 'work for free' situation.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#292

Post by falcolas » Thu, Oct 26, 2017, 2:04 AM UTC

Why do hiring managers believe that github code was actually written by the applicant?

People lie incessantly about their ability to code; that’s why he industry considers things like fizbuz to be valuable. Why assign so much value to a public github account if you don’t trust their word in the first place?

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#293

Post by mi100hael » Thu, Oct 26, 2017, 2:09 AM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #251

trevor-e wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I'll look at a candidate's Github account whenever they list it on their resume. That doesn't mean I'll bring it up during the interview unless there was something particularly interesting to talk about. It's pretty useful for screening candidates, especially looking at code written <1 year ago. I do keep in mind that code written in free time might not have the same standards as production code, but often ther…

You realize that github dates can easily be falsified, right ? Besides, you are only using this as a negative ? So you'll actually hire people who don't put in extra effort over people who put slightly substandard free time code online ? That seems like a losing strategy. I've always found that willingness to put in effort vastly outperforms ability. Not to an infinite extent, but quite a bit.

> You realize that github dates can easily be falsified, right ?

If someone knows that much git, I'd hire them regardless. I'm so sick of untangling other peoples failed merges or trying to explain what the "not a fast-forward" issue means when their push fails.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#294

Post by qq66 » Thu, Oct 26, 2017, 2:15 AM UTC

kemitche wrote: post #269

notzorbo3 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employers don't care. The wrong empoyers don't care. The right ones do. My github portfolio is a means for me to determine if a potential employer is suitable for me, not the other way around. It's not a test for me to pass, it's a test for a potential employer to pass. If a recruiter brings up things listed on my LinkedIn page, I know they're not suitable for me. If they bring up things on my github, I'm reasonabl…

I don't expect my surgeon to do surgery in his spare time. Nor my plumber, dentist, gardener, or any other professional. I look at their past work history and reviews from customers and/or coworkers. I will never understand the belief that side projects are in any way necessary. I'd much rather have a well rounded individual who isn't moonlighting on other things but rather can bring his clear focused mind to the off…

Surgeons, plumbers, dentists, and gardeners are licensed, bonded, and insured, entrusting the certification process to a third party. Surgeons and dentists also have professional development baked into their work schedules, which software engineers should have -- say, hire someone for 35 hours per week so they can spend 5 hours per week on professional development.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#295

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 26, 2017, 2:16 AM UTC

eropple wrote: post #42

warcher wrote: post #31

I’m not mad at you, but as the dude on the other side of the desk, I have to decide whether you can cut it and I’m fine saying no. I could make you do some whiteboard problems, but I think whiteboard problems are pretty far removed from your day to day development and I am uncomfortable relying on them as a proxy for your ability to ship code. I don’t really disagree with your philosophy of working while you’re worki…

On the flip side? As somebody who has plenty of open source projects--the set of employers who actually looks at them is within epsilon of zero. I have not once, not once gotten a meaningful question from anything I have posted on Github in any interview or client meeting even after suggesting up-front that it's worth taking a look. And I used to interview on a monthly basis just to keep in practice! No--instead you…

[deleted]

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#296

Post by colorcode » Thu, Oct 26, 2017, 2:17 AM UTC

hobofan wrote: post #193

eropple wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, that doesn't happen. And I go on a lot of interviews; it's an activity that helps with a set of skills that I always need to keep sharp. And, along those lines, I get a lot of offers! But it has never-not-once been related to my Github profile. In my experience, it is employers signaling how cool they are before they ask you to do their multi-hour coding test for no money.

> before they ask you to do their multi-hour coding test for no money Where do all of you keep finding those companies? Is that an SV thing, or am I just not applying to "prestigious" enough companies? I've been on my fair share of interviews and haven't had that happen once, along with no whiteboard interviews. I can echo your experience about Github projects playing a small role apart from signaling though. Once, a…

I recently had 3-4 interviews in the same format. Its so frustrating and heart wrenching after rejection. For a job i have to go through 2hrs of coding interview.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#297

Post by pseudoramble » Thu, Oct 26, 2017, 2:18 AM UTC

jjcm wrote: post #268

sbov wrote: post #19

I like to have side projects, but I still don't like to share them. People love to find reasons to reject, and an 18, 11, or 7 year long side project (the age of all my side projects) isn't really a fair representation of how I code today. Even as someone who enjoys side projects, the prospect of sharing a side project, and being criticized by a potential employer about the contents of it, turns it from "side project…

Here's what I've done for something like this - a few days before I was set to do rounds of interviews, I took a couple hours for each of my old side projects to comment what I would have done differently in my code. It's much easier to do and it gives the employers a dive into your current thinking when it comes to development. As an example, check the source on my homepage: http://jjcm.org

This was neat. It also seems like a good way to show how you might discuss your work and others work, as well as your sense of humor. It almost felt like reading one of those "the annotated source code of X" sites. How many of these side projects have you done this for?

If nothing else, that was an entertaining read.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#298

Post by joshribakoff » Thu, Oct 26, 2017, 2:22 AM UTC

vacri wrote: post #162

eropple wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side? As somebody who has plenty of open source projects--the set of employers who actually looks at them is within epsilon of zero. I have not once, not once gotten a meaningful question from anything I have posted on Github in any interview or client meeting even after suggesting up-front that it's worth taking a look. And I used to interview on a monthly basis just to keep in practice! No--instead you…

One company I work for rejected a candidate based on Github - he'd cloned some repos and stamped his name on it, and claimed they were his. The hiring tech smelled something fishy, and the candidate said that he worked with these various other repos on the backend. Hiring tech reached out to the owners of several repos, and none of them had heard of the candidate before. Github was used in this hiring process to reve…

Likewise I've deleted resumes because they claimed to have coded a website when it's clear they simply installed out of the box software. They didn't explicitly lie and say they coded it from scratch, but I felt like they were implying that

Another time I rejected due to side work was a candidate claimed to have written the "worlds fastest framework". Even if it was fast it's possible there's something out there faster, so it showed lack of touch with reality, ego, and lack of self awareness. Note I gave the candidate the chance to substantiate their claims and was met with profanity

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#299

Post by qq66 » Thu, Oct 26, 2017, 2:23 AM UTC

The "side project" culture is a by-product of not having a standardized approach to professional development in software engineering. Doctors, teachers, and pilots are all expected to refresh their skills, and their time to do this is baked into their salary. Software engineers need to do the same, but it's not baked into their salary, so they have to do it independently. You wouldn't pay a tax preparer for his time spent learning this year's tax laws, but you also wouldn't hire him if he didn't. So his hourly rate has to include the time that he will spend off-the-clock learning about the new laws that year. Software engineers should do the same, and treat their on-the-clock time as only one of the components of maintaining their professional readiness.

Re: I have no side code projects to show you

#300

Post by jonhermansen » Thu, Oct 26, 2017, 2:24 AM UTC

canadiancreed wrote: post #264

Consultant32452 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No--instead you get dance-like-a-monkey "coding tests" (unpaid, of course) that are nonportable from employer to employer. Anecdote time! I had a potential employer ask me to do the tutorial for their framework before the interview. I submitted a pull request to fix errors in their documentation during the interview. I got the offer but didn't wind up taking it. I don't do those types of things anymore because it's m…

I had something similar where they had a test app online, but the test environment was broken to the point of it being non usable. Emailed them as to what was broken including error messages. Got an email cancelling my interview twenty minutes later.

Hopefully they weren’t trying to hire you for a QA position...