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Open offices are bad for us

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Re: Open offices are bad for us

#291

Post by DashRattlesnake »

chrisbennet wrote: post #113
logfromblammo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once interviewed over a video call. I asked, "I notice you have an open office there. Where do the developers sit in relation to the sales and customer service teams?" They cut the interview short, and I never heard from them again. They know we don't like sitting next to someone yapping on the phone all day. They just don't care .

Bingo. They know it reduces productivity but apparently the productivity hit is worth the cost savings. And frankly, from a business perspective, they could be right. Just don't tell me its "to enhance collaboration" [don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining]. Perhaps I was too harsh, there probably are some businesses that actually don't know that developers are much different from customers support, accountants…

> Bingo. They know it reduces productivity but apparently the productivity hit is worth the cost savings.

Or the cost savings are reaped by different people than those who bear the productivity hit.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#292

Post by dasmoth »

jMyles wrote: post #52
audunw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of people who like open plan. I think the main issue people have is the idea that open plan is superior, and how companies have adopted the plan without any thought or scrutiny (coming up with all sorts of bullshit reason, to rationalize a decision which is really about trying to save money) For a startup or small company doing mostly plain development, and especially if it's a tight-nit group that sta…

I hear you. I prefer floor plans that cater to the mood of the team, rather than setting out some one-size-fits-all-every-day notion of productivity. Thus, it's nice to have open space, but also cozy, comfortable environs for solo- or small-team work. W+K in Portland accomplishes this masterfully.

>>> I prefer floor plans that cater to the mood of the team, rather than setting out some one-size-fits-all-every-day notion of productivity.

Certainly agree that avoiding a one-size-fits-all attitude is best, but I think that picking something at the granularity of "the team" is part of the problem here.

Likewise, people who answer a bunch of tricky questions with "the team decides."

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#293

Post by amag »

majewsky wrote: post #281
BjoernKW wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People had social lives before there was large-scale use of offices. There are several ways in which a home office allows for a richer social life: - You're not stuck on your commute for several hours a day. That time can be spent much more beneficially, for example for having social interactions. - Working remotely actually requires you to communicate more and better than when everyone's sitting in the same office.…

> - You're not stuck on your commute for several hours a day. That time can be spent much more beneficially, for example for having social interactions. My commute is 20 minutes. I can barely read my newspaper, so I'd not mind a longer commute, actually (as long as I can use public transit). > - Working remotely actually requires you to communicate more and better than when everyone's sitting in the same office. I ha…

> My commute is 20 minutes.

Wow! Good for you, but you're truly a minority then.

> When I leave, I leave the job behind

Also good for you! As a software developer I find it quite hard at times not to think about how to solve a work related problem.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#294

Post by dasmoth »

user5994461 wrote: post #222
bane wrote: post #69

I came from a world with shared offices and team rooms (about 10 to a room) and found the team rooms the optimal way to work -- with the ability to dive out into an office if you needed intense focus on something or privacy. Open offices (note I'm meaning cubes here) can be done reasonably well, but I think they need lots of small huddle rooms you can dive into for focus, discussion and privacy and that everybody in…

Agree. Offices for small team are the optimal solutions. Source: many years of experiences in open plan offices and team offices.

Do you have much experience of private offices?

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#295

Post by dajohnson89 »

Frustration with open offices is perfectly understandable -- I work in an open office and overall I would prefer to have my own office (most people would).

But the outrage about the trend towards open offices reeks of entitlement. Think of the assembly line worker -- he/she has even less privacy. And don't tell me that working on an assembly line isn't mentally exhausting. Try one shift and let me know how that goes. Think cook in a shady restaurant, think an illegal immigrant in San Antonio in July installing a new roof on somebody's McMansion. THOSE are difficult working environments.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#296

Post by chrisbennet »

chrisbennet wrote: post #113
logfromblammo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once interviewed over a video call. I asked, "I notice you have an open office there. Where do the developers sit in relation to the sales and customer service teams?" They cut the interview short, and I never heard from them again. They know we don't like sitting next to someone yapping on the phone all day. They just don't care .

Bingo. They know it reduces productivity but apparently the productivity hit is worth the cost savings. And frankly, from a business perspective, they could be right. Just don't tell me its "to enhance collaboration" [don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining]. Perhaps I was too harsh, there probably are some businesses that actually don't know that developers are much different from customers support, accountants…

I was afraid I might get some flak for mentioning accountants. I apparently have/had an incorrect or at least dated view of how an accountant works.

In the context of my own work as a developer, focus for me entails trying to come up with the math to do something new. This entails hours of thinking about it in bed but also trying to juggle the ideas in my head. (I'll be the first to admit that thinking is probably not my strong suit.)

BTW: I'm looking for a New Hampshire based CPA for my sole proprietorship if you know of anyone. :-)

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#297

Post by amag »

athenot wrote: post #50
smelendez wrote: post #21

Open offices are awful, but they're here to stay for the same reason more adults are living with roommates and relatives: high real estate prices. Working remotely is one solution, but many companies don't think it would work for them. Personally, I'd make the shared area for solitary work only: no work discussions longer than a minute at work areas (use a conference room, take a walk or Slack), no eating at work are…

In my experience, open offices are ok when they are treated like libraries, where quietness is enforced. "Shared area for solitary work only" describes this very well. In some rare teams, there can be oubursts of goofiness at predictable afternoon times without it affecting productivity, but it takes the right team for that to happen, otherwise it's just a source of frustration.

But it's so unnatural.

If I need to discuss something with a colleague and (s)he's sitting right there, I have to hit myself not to just blurt out loud what I wanted to say. A lot of times the mouth is quicker than the mind and I'll upset ppl. If OTOH we're sitting in separate offices I have to physically leave my office and enter my colleague's office to do that. A lot of the times I realize that I can figure out a solution by myself by the time I reach my door. The other times the discussion takes place in a private office and no one else is disturbed.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#298

Post by amag »

beachstartup wrote: post #122
gdulli wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working remotely is one solution, but many companies don't think it would work for them. The problem for me is, I need to be generally around people during the day. I want to be able to work productively but have people to talk to face to face when I leave my office, go to meetings, lunch, etc. I don't dislike people and couldn't tolerate being too isolated. I just want a few walls around me.

that's pretty much what everyone wants. the problem is it's expensive.

The problem is that management thinks it's more expensive. But if we're 15% less productive (as the article suggests and I think is a low estimate) it's actually more expensive with open space.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#299

Post by RUG3Y »

sjclemmy wrote: post #189
eropple wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're really not, though. In addition to "hey, hearing damage!" if you're listening loud enough to actually counteract the din of crap around you, it's a profoundly isolating thing to be wearing them for six hours a day. It's symptomatic relief that pushes the buttons of way worse problems, IMO.

Which is why I just bought some of those Bose noise cancelling cans. Listen at a safe volume and block out noise. They're great.

They're expensive too. I know it's not a concern for some but it is for me.

Re: Open offices are bad for us

#300

Post by femiagbabiaka »

dajohnson89 wrote: post #295

Frustration with open offices is perfectly understandable -- I work in an open office and overall I would prefer to have my own office (most people would). But the outrage about the trend towards open offices reeks of entitlement. Think of the assembly line worker -- he/she has even less privacy. And don't tell me that working on an assembly line isn't mentally exhausting. Try one shift and let me know how that goes.…

yes.. they deserve dignity on the job too. we can have both, no need to choose
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