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A Guaranteed Income for Every American

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291–300 of 387 posts

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#291

I'm surprised that so many people on HN support UBI, it sounds horrifying to me. Did you learn nothing from communism? By increasing taxes you decrease incentives for making wealth, and, more importantly, infringe on individual freedoms. Infringing on human rights of the rich people is one of the worst things you can do for the economy, because they are the people with means of production, and they are the people wit…

Did you at least read the article ? He writes about replacing the current welfare system with UBI. About the taxes, I think you are wrong because you think in black and white. It's not binary, it's a spectrum and you want to have a balance, in USA the current system is very favorable to the rich.

In the previous discussion a commenter pretty much explained why this wouldn't work:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11807840

Also I think I can accept that a certain amount of taxes is a necessary evil. But let's treat it as such, and avoid taking more than absolutely necessary.

In my opinion UBI is a step way too far in the wrong direction.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#292

I'm surprised that so many people on HN support UBI, it sounds horrifying to me. Did you learn nothing from communism? By increasing taxes you decrease incentives for making wealth, and, more importantly, infringe on individual freedoms. Infringing on human rights of the rich people is one of the worst things you can do for the economy, because they are the people with means of production, and they are the people wit…

Did you at least read the article ? He writes about replacing the current welfare system with UBI. About the taxes, I think you are wrong because you think in black and white. It's not binary, it's a spectrum and you want to have a balance, in USA the current system is very favorable to the rich.

There is no spectrum. Taxes on private income are grossly authoritarian and should be abolished for basic justice.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#293
post #287

I like the idea of UBI, but the problem with schemes to improve wealth equality is that usually the middle class ends up footing almost all of the bill. If a rich person feels that their wealth is threatened, they can evade the negative consequences of the scheme (taxes) by relocating their head office to the Caymans. On the other hand, if a middle class family is negatively impacted by the scheme - They cannot evade…

>If UBI is to be instated, we would also have to implement harsh laws to prevent the upper classes from evading taxes. Moving wealth to a tax haven should be made a criminal offence (with jail time). How about you don't instate something that requires harsh authoritarian penalties against non-violent behavior to work.

People already go to prison for tax evasion, if they're doing it systematically and deliberately.

I don't understand the (apparently popular) argument that serious criminal penalties should only be handed out for direct physical violence. Look at all the horrible shit that happened during the housing collapse--taking someone's home away under false pretenses (and under threat of police violence!) is just as destructive as if you'd burned it down while they were away.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#295
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If UBI is to be instated, we would also have to implement harsh laws to prevent the upper classes from evading taxes. Moving wealth to a tax haven should be made a criminal offence (with jail time). How about you don't instate something that requires harsh authoritarian penalties against non-violent behavior to work.

People already go to prison for tax evasion, if they're doing it systematically and deliberately. I don't understand the (apparently popular) argument that serious criminal penalties should only be handed out for direct physical violence. Look at all the horrible shit that happened during the housing collapse--taking someone's home away under false pretenses (and under threat of police violence!) is just as destructi…

Two wrongs don't make a right. No one should go to prison for refusing to hand over a share of the currency that they earned in a private trade.

There is so much admiration for the covert mass surveillance that Edward Snowden uncovered and exposed to the world yet we seem to not blink an eye at the blatant and overt mass surveillance of private financial transactions - where we are legally required to totally surrender our financial privacy to the government - that has to be imposed on people so that there can even be an income tax.

Refusing to hand over your private income is totally incomparable to fraud. I honestly have trouble understanding how people can make these kinds of arguments.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#296
Some sanity checks that UBI fails in every method I've seen: it's some combination of (usually multiple): 1) costs a huge amount more in taxation, 2) screws those most needing help, 3) is not universal, but simply a tax on rich to give to poor, or 4) does not address the economic consequences that negate a significant part of the claims. Simple checks for this one:

1) 236,000,000 Americans aged 21+ [1] times 13,000 each is $3 trillion needing gathered in taxed to hand out. Entire Federal receipts for 2015 was $3.25 trillion [2].

2) The author scraps all current transfer programs (common), including Social Security and Medicare. The plan requires 3K of the 10K to be for health insurance. Average Social Security payment is 14,784 [3]. So we screwed Social Security recipients, who more likely need the money than then average person getting the new free UBI.

3) Medicare currently spends around 900B, which I assume will still need covered, since people will still have medical needs. The 3K allocated above, times 236M people, is 708B, not enough to cover Medicare, and certainly not enough to replace all current health care insurance.

4) The transfer programs cut total at most 2T [2].

5) An analysis of his tax scheme, using [4]. The first 30K is not taxed (23.5% of households). Those above 60K get no UBI (46% of households). As such, I wonder if they still need to pay an additional 3K for insurance since they didn't get the 13K? We'll assume so. The rest we can assume has linear benefits from 30K (13K free money) to 60K (no free money). This means for each $2.3 earned over 30K, one loses $1 in free money, which I think would create a huge disincentive to jump this weird benefit gap. Here's [5]effective federal tax rates by quintile. Coupled with the income breakdown above, those under the 60K range will get tax breaks, meaning those above 60K will shoulder a decent amount more in taxes.

6) It would be interesting to chase down who will have to pay what to meet these requirements - it's late; perhaps I'll do that later.

7) Removing targeted money (for housing, for food for kids, etc), and simply giving cash allows people to spend on bad items. The reason many programs are targeted is to help ensure people buy the necessities first. I would expect UBI as posed here would realize this, and then add back targeted programs to avoid the bad effects, negating the claimed simplicity of UBI. Also, many poor get money from multiple programs, and removing those programs and giving everyone a fixed 10K would mean a lot of them now get a lot less (as I claimed, these plans screw the most needy quite often).

8) UBI will most likely make the entire country poorer: the report on Mincome gives an example of a previous UBI experiment causing a 13% reduction in hours worked. OECD reports show as benefits increase across countries, more people live off benefits as opposed to working. Basic economic theory also would make the same claim. If so, less production means we have less goods and services.

9) Counter to 8, prices will likely rise for things the poor buy, especially rent, forcing people back to work. This is also basic economic theory; currently someone willing to put forth X effort to trade for a place to stay will still do so, and giving that person free money (and everyone) will allow landlords to raise rent to consume some of the free money. Think of the common complaint that govt making money easy for houses or college causes those prices to climb faster than without the easy money - except now this applies to a lot more goods.

So, if we have limited resources, which we do, why not use them in targeted ways to alleviate problems instead of trying a ham-handed, one-size-tries-to-fit-all solution? This is my main complaint about UBI desires - it necessarily removes benefits from the most needy to give to the less needy by ignoring the level or situation (or even regional cost of living changes).

And if your reply is we simply raise taxes, then why not apply targeted benefits with those increased taxes? It still would provide help where most needed, instead of blind (and suboptimal) allocation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget

[3] https://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/quickfacts/stat_snapshot/

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United...

[5] https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments...

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#297

I'm surprised that so many people on HN support UBI, it sounds horrifying to me. Did you learn nothing from communism? By increasing taxes you decrease incentives for making wealth, and, more importantly, infringe on individual freedoms. Infringing on human rights of the rich people is one of the worst things you can do for the economy, because they are the people with means of production, and they are the people wit…

>The idea behind UBI is that we can now afford it because we have abundance of resources to support it. If that were the case, these resources would be available without the need to coerce business owners out of their money.

This isn't true. Think about providing clean water, to the world. That's estimated at $10 billion/yr back in 2000, probably $20B/yr now with inflation(1). We spent almost $19B/yr on bottled water(2), which is usually taken from public water sources that the companies very little for, ~$2/million liters(3). This is not a reason to coerce businesses of their money, more that we do have the resources, but need to use/distribute it more wisely.

1:http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/23/world/price-of-safe-water-...

2:http://www.wsj.com/articles/water-water-everywherein-bottles...

3:http://blogs.reuters.com/breakingviews/2015/04/02/nestle-wad...

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#298
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If UBI is to be instated, we would also have to implement harsh laws to prevent the upper classes from evading taxes. Moving wealth to a tax haven should be made a criminal offence (with jail time). How about you don't instate something that requires harsh authoritarian penalties against non-violent behavior to work.

Crime does not have to be violent to deserve drastic penalty.

Anything can be made a crime by passing a law. But only violent and/or fraudulent behavior should be illegal. Laws imprisoning those who refuse to hand over a share of the currency they receive in private trade are unjust, and should be abolished.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#299
post #6

Once again no answer to the main Question: What to do with people that blow their UBI by the 2nd of each month on SAAS Startups? Let them starve? Go without Shelter?

From the article: > Some people will still behave irresponsibly and be in need before that deposit arrives, but the UBI will radically change the social framework within which they seek help: Everybody will know that everybody else has an income stream. It will be possible to say to the irresponsible what can’t be said now: “We won’t let you starve before you get your next deposit, but it’s time for you to get your a…

how is that different from telling lazy bums today to get a job, but without extra layers of complexity?

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#300
post #275

I like the idea of UBI, but the problem with schemes to improve wealth equality is that usually the middle class ends up footing almost all of the bill. If a rich person feels that their wealth is threatened, they can evade the negative consequences of the scheme (taxes) by relocating their head office to the Caymans. On the other hand, if a middle class family is negatively impacted by the scheme - They cannot evade…

Does it really matter if a billionaire stacks up billions in some Cayman account? If so, it is straightforward to use inflation to redistribute those digits. What I care about is a billionaire who buys up all the land in my country. The land can't be hidden and is therefore easy to tax. I care about a billionaire who eats gold leaf ice cream sundaes while the children across town are malnourished, but it is easy to t…

Those billions in a cayman account are dead money. They are the marginal efficiency of labour crystallised, and then transformed into a immotile instrument which benefits nobody.

You say it does no harm, but why do you think we're still working 60 hour weeks when we've improved efficiency in all fields by orders of magnitude since industrialisation? All that efficiency gain's benefit was "realised" by the elites, but until that money is spent, loaned, invested, used - that value is destroyed.

Sure, sure, tell me it's a store of value, but you'd still think the squirrel that stored 1000 tonnes of acorns for winter and wouldn't share, causing furry famine, to only then after winter forget where he left them and demand more acorns from the working squirrels was pretty damn irrational.

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