A Guaranteed Income for Every American • Hacker News Board

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#281

Post by iopq » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 7:23 AM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #199

wildmusings wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If Basic Income is to work then it needs to be actually liveable and adjusted based upon the CoL in each area. There's a good argument to be made for a larger sum for the disabled who cannot work. But I'd be extremely opposed to any regional adjustments. If individual cities and states want to supplement the UBI, then that's up to them, but people moving out of high-cost areas and into low-cost ones is part of the…

The problem of course with that argument is that people also need to move into higher-cost areas in order to find jobs for certain industries. If there was no regional adjustment that encourages individuals to stay put. Poor people congregate in low-cost areas with low job opportunities. A CoL adjustment for San Francisco isn't the problem, but rather the fact that San Francisco costs so much to begin with.

San Francisco costs so much because so many people want to live there. Not every person who wants to live there should be able to live there - there's only so much housing in the city.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#282

Post by ptaipale » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 7:33 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #230

DennisP wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just checked healthsherpa plan prices for a 64-year-old, and it came to almost $900/mo with a $5000 deductible. Maybe it's possible to radically reduce healthcare costs, but we should probably do that first before eliminating Medicare.

The problem is eliminating Medicare is essentially a prerequisite to meaningfully reducing healthcare costs. As long as there is a deep pocket to pay whatever outrageous prices people are charged, people will keep getting charged outrageous prices. Take away the money and the price would come down in a hurry.

Is it really Medicare, or medical insurance in general?

What you would need to solve this is socialized medical care supervised by the government, who takes from those who can contribute and gives to those who are in need. It wouldn't have to be completely run by the government but would have to be supervised by it.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#283

Post by Kliment » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 7:49 AM UTC

Tycho wrote: post #28

I'm surprised UBI is getting all the attention and negative income tax is not receiving equal consideration.

It's about cash flow - NIT would be paid out approximately once per year, making it much less practical to work with.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#284

Post by crdoconnor » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 7:54 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #143

crdoconnor wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The proposed problem - and it's an elitist one - is that if you try to solve the basic income problem with minimum wages, the skill level required to be productive also rises, and eventually you get to the point where employers try hard to automate the job out of existence. "We'll just automate your job away" is one of the biggest empty threats along with "we'll just fire everybody, causing mass unemployment". Emplo…

Have you seen the new McD's ordering kiosks? They're definitely there, and I find I prefer them to the previous cashier experience. That combination looks bad for fast food front of house workers...

I have. Have you seen the equivalents of McD's kiosks from 1890's Berlin?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat#/media/File:Stollwerck...

Those things are bound to replace most food service workers by the 1920s at the very latest.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#285

Post by rayalez » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 7:56 AM UTC

I'm surprised that so many people on HN support UBI, it sounds horrifying to me. Did you learn nothing from communism? By increasing taxes you decrease incentives for making wealth, and, more importantly, infringe on individual freedoms.

Infringing on human rights of the rich people is one of the worst things you can do for the economy, because they are the people with means of production, and they are the people with options to go somewhere else.

The premise that you are free to make as much money as you want and not be punished for it is one of the biggest things that made USA awesome in the first place.

The idea behind UBI is that we can now afford it because we have abundance of resources to support it. If that were the case, these resources would be available without the need to coerce people out of their money.

The only way to get those resources without taking away the freedom is to treat UBI as what it should be - a charity. Only when there's so much abundance that people are willingly giving away enough of their money to support everyone else, when it's a choice and not a coercion, will UBI have a chance at working without creepy and horrifying consequences.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#286

Post by papapra » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 8:01 AM UTC

rayalez wrote: post #285

I'm surprised that so many people on HN support UBI, it sounds horrifying to me. Did you learn nothing from communism? By increasing taxes you decrease incentives for making wealth, and, more importantly, infringe on individual freedoms. Infringing on human rights of the rich people is one of the worst things you can do for the economy, because they are the people with means of production, and they are the people wit…

Did you at least read the article ? He writes about replacing the current welfare system with UBI.

About the taxes, I think you are wrong because you think in black and white. It's not binary, it's a spectrum and you want to have a balance, in USA the current system is very favorable to the rich.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#287

Post by aminok » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 8:07 AM UTC

jondubois wrote: post #262

I like the idea of UBI, but the problem with schemes to improve wealth equality is that usually the middle class ends up footing almost all of the bill. If a rich person feels that their wealth is threatened, they can evade the negative consequences of the scheme (taxes) by relocating their head office to the Caymans. On the other hand, if a middle class family is negatively impacted by the scheme - They cannot evade…

>If UBI is to be instated, we would also have to implement harsh laws to prevent the upper classes from evading taxes. Moving wealth to a tax haven should be made a criminal offence (with jail time).

How about you don't instate something that requires harsh authoritarian penalties against non-violent behavior to work.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#288

Post by aminok » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 8:11 AM UTC

VonGuard wrote: post #23

throwaway13337 wrote: post #4

"The UBI is to be financed by getting rid of Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, Supplemental Security Income, housing subsidies, welfare for single women and every other kind of welfare and social-services program, as well as agricultural subsidies and corporate welfare." How the hell does that happen politically? I would love to see basic income replacing a large portion of social programs in the stat…

The thing is, I don't think it can happen politically. What is going on now is just the research stage so that we have some sort of data point for UBI supporters to latch onto. There are all sorts of groups inside the UBI tent, and many of them disagree with each other violently, but we're so far from a UBI that for now, everyone can agree on it in the broadest possible way. I, personally, have a completely different…

>I, personally, have a completely different take on all of this from most UBI'ers. I take the long view: in 50 years, physical labor could be eliminated. WTF do we do when this happens? Do we relegate half of society to be homeless?

Just because you can't imagine what people will do after physical labor is antiquated doesn't mean the average person, who you underestimate as a bumbling fool, will not come up with ways to earn an income.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#289

Post by mynewtb » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 8:12 AM UTC

aminok wrote: post #287

jondubois wrote: post #262

I like the idea of UBI, but the problem with schemes to improve wealth equality is that usually the middle class ends up footing almost all of the bill. If a rich person feels that their wealth is threatened, they can evade the negative consequences of the scheme (taxes) by relocating their head office to the Caymans. On the other hand, if a middle class family is negatively impacted by the scheme - They cannot evade…

>If UBI is to be instated, we would also have to implement harsh laws to prevent the upper classes from evading taxes. Moving wealth to a tax haven should be made a criminal offence (with jail time). How about you don't instate something that requires harsh authoritarian penalties against non-violent behavior to work.

Crime does not have to be violent to deserve drastic penalty.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#290

Post by adynatos » Sun, Jun 05, 2016, 8:12 AM UTC

brador wrote: post #10

Roritharr wrote: post #3

Once again no answer to the main Question: What to do with people that blow their UBI by the 2nd of each month on SAAS Startups? Let them starve? Go without Shelter?

Pay out UBI daily? The technology exists, no reason not to do it that way. Also the only way to make a basic income work is through a land or land value tax. Else you get massive inflation.

what about the people that blow their daily ubi five minutes after getting it on a saas startup? let them starve or go homeless?