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The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

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Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#281
post #273
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a major fear for religious groups that belong to a religion that won't recognize/perform same-sex marriages. But it won't likely happen (or won't be upheld on challenges up to SCOTUS if it does happen at a local level). Religious freedom includes religions that sometimes hold beliefs that may not be popular. For example, most Zoroastrian organizations forbid conversion to Zoroastrianism and won't permit marriag…

Then how do you explain the links I posted in that comment? Do you think those rulings are only in place because the Supreme Court hasn't been involved yet? I'm not so sure that the Supreme Court would rule that churches can refuse to offer a service due to someone's sexual orientation. They have obviously ruled that private businesses and organizations cannot discriminate based on race (as well as several other attr…

Yes. They are likely in place because it hasn't

a) filtered up to SCOTUS

b) been accepted as a case by SCOTUS.

Business and religious organizations are significantly different kinds of recognized organizations in the U.S. It's not correct to try and draw a parallel between them. Just like it's not correct to draw a parallel between U.S. criminal law and the UCMJ.

In your last example (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/30/nj-rules-against-ch...) it's possible the ruling will stand since the church was running a business outside of its normal religious functions. Here's the actual ruling http://www.aclu-nj.org/files/8713/2639/9826/CRT_6145-09_Bern...

In this case, the property was held by the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association. Not a church. However, majority ownership in the association is held by the United Methodist Church. Board members must be members or clergy in UMC. Meaning they formed the association as an organization outside of the Church and thus is required to follow the laws any other owned organization must follow...including non-discrimination.

This would be analogous to a church buying a McDonald's franchise and then claiming they can not hire minorities or women because of some religious tenant.

UMC owns a large number of businesses and properties that it leases for business or residential use. As a matter of fact, a better analogy is UMC might form a non-profit company that owns a low-rent apartment complex (as a social outreach program) and only allow low-income people to live there. But then deny an application based purely on somebody being gay. Or property that a restaurant leases and then demands the restaurant not serve gay patrons.

In this case the

In this case the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association owned about a square mile of beach front property that it used for both religious services (my guess would be with a fee paid to the Association by UMC) and rented out for various functions including weddings. It'd be no different than an owner of a large function hall renting it out for weddings 6 days a week and for church service on Sundays (which is actually quite common).

The Association then sought private organization (not religious) tax-exemption as part of a nature preservation agreement. A legal requirement under this exemption is that property be available for public use on an equal basis.

You can see where this is going and the rest of the opinion is good reading to help flesh out the story. It's relatively clear cut, and doesn't infringe in any way on the UMC to exercise their religious beliefs. In fact the UMC's defense was an effort to push out their religious beliefs into the public sphere in clear violation of the law. A law that, BTW makes clear exceptions for religious organizations and their practices -- even if discriminatory.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm stating that a social environment where a man loses a job Mozilla thought he was qualified for because of private personal beliefs Private "personal beliefs" that he reached into his wallet and tried to force into law. This is the one thing that people don't seem to understand. Eich didn't just think gays were second class citizens. This isn't a "thoughtcrime" he's being pilloried for. It was the action. The do…

No, I think you've decided that when democracy doesn't cater exactly to your personal morals, it must be wrong. Making a donation based on private, personal beliefs is ENTIRELY the point of a democracy. The correct action is to speak out in support of your ideas, not to cast hatred on those who disagree. Instead of sitting here arguing, you could have gone and made a 10 dollar donation to a pro-lbgt group, and done a…

> Making a donation based on private, personal beliefs is ENTIRELY the point of a democracy

No, but its part of the point of a free society -- as is criticizing others actions based on their personal beliefs.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#283
post #272
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well they always had a recourse. Get married someplace else. Go to a different church, or if your sect forbids it, get to a different sect, and if your religion forbids it, make your own sect, and if that's too much work, just get a civil marriage. I know it's not quite that simple, people get very hung up on where they spend their Fridays, Saturdays or Sundays, but people usually have options of some sort.

Sure, but one could say the same for "whites only" businesses in the American south. African Americans could just eat, fill up their gas tanks, buy clothes, etc. "someplace else." The Civil Rights Acts makes it clear that the people (or at least the government) does not endorse that form of self-determination.

Except that religious tolerance, including tolerance for religious organization's religiously grounded specific discrimination stances, is specifically enshrined in the Constitution. Businesses have no similar or even remotely analogous protection.

Drawing an analogy between an organized religious organization like a Church and a business like a restaurant is a fundamental misunderstanding of the law. This specific dividing line has been held up over and over again in cases where religious organizations incorporate a business entity, and then wish to push particular discrimination policies specific to their practices into that business.

A White Supremacist church is free to be discriminatory, but the bakery it owns and runs as a separate business entity is not for example.

However, IIR, a religiously owned organization, like a corporation, may choose to discriminate based on religion. So the White Supremacist Church's bakery, let's say it's Lutheran, may choose not to hire non-Lutherans at its bakery. This was actually held up by SCOTUS in a 1987 decision for a Mormon church owned corporation.

edit http://www.ecfa.org/Content/TopicReligiousDiscrim

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#284
post #118
post #47

What is regrettable in all this is that no one seems to consider the possibility that people may have nuanced views about gay marriage. According to the mob you're either a saint or a bigot, and thus Eich's value as a human being was supposedly entirely determined by this one opinion he voiced in 2008. I'm staunchly in favor of gay marriage, which I consider to be a no-brainer -- but it seems to me the motivations of…

This is really not the point at all; we're way way past the debate pro- or against- gay marriage. (Disclaimer: like probably 99% of people on HN, I'm strongly in favor of gay marriage). The point(s) are: - is it acceptable to hunt a man down and force him to step down from a job he's highly qualified for, because he has held in the past political opinions that not only differ from your own, but were then mainstream a…

> is it acceptable to hunt a man down and force him to step down from a job he's highly qualified for

No one forced Eich to do anything. His choice to step down was as free as his choice to donate to Prop. 8.

Plus, I'm not sure there's much evidence that Eich was "highly qualified" for the CEO job -- he was clearly highly qualified for his previous job as CTO, but his appointment was controversial within the Mozilla board even before the Prop. 8 controversy.

> is it acceptable for a corporation such as OkCupid to ruin a man's (otherwise impeccable) professional life for a little PR stunt?

OkCupid didn't ruin Eich's "(otherwise impeccable) professional life". OkCupid was fairly late in piling on -- insofar as the Prop. 8 controversy damaged Eich, much of that damage had already been done by the time OkCupid acted.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, "hunt a man down" and "ruin a man's (otherwise impeccable) professional life"? You have a really low bar for using these phrases and it makes your argument that much more ridiculous (and false). None of these things happened and you miss half the context in which similar but less hyperbolic things happened.

Brendan Eich's professional life was impeccable. he had a stellar resume, and was CTO of a successful company. he could've gone anywhere from there. Now, he's thought of in SV as a bigot, despite all his efforts to reverse that opinion. His impeccable professional reputation is ruined. I see no lowering of the bar when staing this fact. Perhaps you could explain why saying he was ruined professionally is false? After…

> Now, he's thought of in SV as a bigot, despite all his efforts to reverse that opinion.

He's expressed his bigotry, he's in fact made political maneuverings to enact his bigotry. He's done nothing to apologize or rescind his bigot actions. People are judging him off his actions and lack of words, the best criteria.

> Perhaps you could explain why saying he was ruined professionally is false?

How about the dozen or so huge honchos who have so far made statements about standing with him? They clearly don't care about his actions and as you can see on this website a majority find valor in him making donations like he did, so no I don't see his professional life ruined (sadly) by his actions.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#286

There's an enormous false equivalency here: Prop 8 groups are single issue donations. A donation means exactly and only that you agree with the cause of anti-gay marriage. Politicians are many-thousand issue donations. I know of exactly zero people who I agree with on everything. A donation to a politician can have thousands of motives, and even be done in staunch disagreement about certain issues (especially in the…

Tell that to the people who were citing Eich's other donations to "anti-gay" politicians, to further damn him.[0][1] (I'm guessing parent poster is not one of them, though.) If it counts against Eich, let's not let anyone else get a pass for the same thing. At the least it seems perfectly fair to grill Yagan pretty hard on this. Maybe nobody will because the story is saturated and/or this headline is not as juicy.

You could say a variant of the "donation ... can have thousands of motives" about Prop 8 or any single-issue group, too. In another sense, once you donate, you don't really have control over what the campaign does, just as you don't over what a politician does. Of course there's not as much latitude, but I'm concerned people ascribe the worst animosity possible to single-issue donors but the most charitable viewpoint to politician donors.

If you think there is no morality/empathy gradient on reasons for supporting Prop 8, that supporting it at all is repugnant, that's understandable. Are there any politicians who are so anti-gay-marriage, that donating to them would be just as bad as donating for Prop 8? Maybe this Chris Cannon, who has a "special kind of hate for gays", is one of them?

I'm also kind of conflicted. When you get into guessing people's feelings and motives from public documents about multifaceted ideas, it's not black and white. Maybe it's only fair to apply the same logic to anyone who who may have been hypocritically criticizing him, though.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7529538

[1] http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/apr/02/controvers...

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Donating $1000 to a hate group is not "behaving badly"? Prop 8 is a proposition, not a hate group. This redefinition is scary and files a "hate group" as being anyone who disagrees with your position. Supporting a proposition is his right and it is ok. I don't see his intent as being hateful. Ignorant, but not hate. > If I have any vitriol at all, it's directed at his defenders and those that want to make him a mar…

The political organization that's behind Prop 8 (the people that Eich donated to, since you can't donate to a bill) quacks like a hate group in a number of ways, not least of which is they dehumanize and make fun of LGBTs. If you have not already, please view that slate.com link I sent you a couple posts ago. You can ignore the text there as it's basically what I've been saying here verbatim, but I would ask you to p…

This article[0]?

My response is that Eich didn't personally approve these ads, and may have had no way of possibly knowing what his money would actually fund. (I'd be interested in evidence about the visibility of any prior work, the timing of his donation, etc., though.)

If you find simply supporting the idea repugnant, sure, but then arguments like "he donated to a hate group" and Slate's "The Campaign for Prop 8 Was Unprecedentedly Cruel" aren't really necessary. If they pushed a law that is hateful to the core, it's less relevant how hateful or not the group itself was.

I suppose if he did see and regret the ads, he could have said so, but AFAIK has said nothing. Then again, he probably felt that doing anything other than a long thorough apology, donating to pro-gay-marriage groups, crying for forgiveness, etc., would dig the hole deeper.

[0] http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/04/04/brendan_eich_s...

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#288
post #29

In my honest opinion, I think the point here is that Mozilla is an organization that promotes good principles like equality. OkCupid, in contrast, is just a dating site. Do people really expect good principles from a dating site?

As of last week, OkCupid is a dating site that promotes marriage equality, or at least wants to be seen as such.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#289
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many on the left (including myself) revere the style of politics of Nelson Mandela and yet when it comes time to actually behave like Mandela would in a given situation they completely fail, and conduct the same style of embittered, vengeful politics when they are asked to treat the other side with an attitude of forgiveness and reconciliation. Do you think Mandela systematically purged all those whites who once s…

So - what you are saying is that you support radical, armed struggle in support of marriage equality? Just as Mandela supported radical, armed struggle against apartheid?

Yes, before he went to prison Mandela was engaged in armed revolution.. But after he got out of prison he did everything he could do to avoid bloodshed and war, even if it meant negotiating with those who had imprisoned him for 27 years.

Re: The Hypocrisy Of Sam Yagan and OkCupid

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Donating $1000 to a hate group is not "behaving badly"? Prop 8 is a proposition, not a hate group. This redefinition is scary and files a "hate group" as being anyone who disagrees with your position. Supporting a proposition is his right and it is ok. I don't see his intent as being hateful. Ignorant, but not hate. > If I have any vitriol at all, it's directed at his defenders and those that want to make him a mar…

The political organization that's behind Prop 8 (the people that Eich donated to, since you can't donate to a bill) quacks like a hate group in a number of ways, not least of which is they dehumanize and make fun of LGBTs. If you have not already, please view that slate.com link I sent you a couple posts ago. You can ignore the text there as it's basically what I've been saying here verbatim, but I would ask you to p…

> I find it very puzzling that you say I am practicing all this hatred by saying I find Eich's actions repugnant

> If I have any vitriol at all, it's directed at his defenders and those that want to make him a martyr for "freedom of speech".

I'm saying Eich freedom is being violated. I'm just repeating what you said and referring to your "vitriol".

I understand where you are coming from. However, it's easy to misconstrue a position that someone took. Notice I used some weasel words such as "it sounds like". I could misconstrue your statement as you hating me.

I believe that Eich's support & position is being misconstrued. He should be able to express the reasons for his support without fear of reprisal. I would not be surprised if he & his family were harassed, as harassment seems to accompany such emotionally charged situations. I would be fearful if I were publicly targeted like that. Even if you are right, you never bully people into agreeing with your position.

I watched the commercials. The last one is ridiculous, since the couple should have answered that marriage is about love and not necessarily about having children. However, none of the commercials struck me as overtly discriminatory. The one with the two princesses, is somewhat discriminatory; However the position of parents (with religious convictions) should have control over their children's education at least deserved some consideration. To a parent, it coercive to (without warning), teach a child something that they disagree with.

The ads expressed some legitimate concerns that should be addressed. There was even a point where someone was afraid that people's jobs would be targeted for their beliefs. Obviously that fear is well founded.

I'm failing to see how this is a hate group. I believe some of the Prop 8 supporters were bigots, however, the campaign itself does not seem like it is based on hate.

I fail to see how Eich is an aware supporter of hate groups.

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