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Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

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Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#281

Post by forgiveme10k »

_airh wrote: post #8

It is strange that the same country which cherishes its 'right to bear arms' on the grounds that it gives them a level of protection that the government is unable to provide is 'happy' to build the infrastructure which allows the same government to peek into their lives. On the one hand, we don't trust the government with the basics (physical security). On the other, we trust them with information we don't want our p…

There's another plausible explanation for what you have observed re: outrage.

Indifferent isn't the right word, it is outright drooling ignorance. That, and some of them may still not use any electronic means of communication, but those are pretty well dying off. The limit of their outrage would be to Echelon.

Encryption and modems. Oh, and anything to slow down those NLP MR jobs, like screwing with spelling and word boundaries. (Yes, immature and and likely ultimately futile)

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#282

Post by forgiveme10k »

munificent wrote: post #192
mtgx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is the 4th amendment, and look how much that one is abused. In the end the Constitution really is "just a piece of paper", if not the government , not the judges , not the media , and ultimately not even the people respect it, live by it, and try to protect it as soon as it's endangered by people trying to accumulate too much power. Where are all the street protests?! I also fail to understand people who so viciou…

> Where are all the street protests?! I'm going to interpret that question literally. A key thing you have to keep in mind is that in almost all of the US outside of a few very large cities, the "street" is not a useful public place. People don't gather and interact on streets in the US. They are merely channels for cars. Protesting on the streets would be as useful in most cities in the US as wandering around next t…

Look up "501(c)3 governmental control" in a search engine other than Google.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#283

Post by ScottBurson »

mindcrime wrote: post #238
it_luddite wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, there are significant amounts of people on both sides of any debate, much less this one, with either blinders on or have selective vision. As a strict constructionist, I affirm the right of anyone to burn any flag, anyone to "protest" at a funeral, as well as PRISM being unconstitutional. Further, I believe that there is not an explicit "right to privacy" and therefore there is not a right to privacy.…

Further, I believe that there is not an explicit "right to privacy" and therefore there is not a right to privacy. So are you saying that a "right" has to be explicitly spelled out in the BoR in order to be a right? If that's what you mean, then how the heck does a "strict constructionist" get that to jibe with the 9th Amendment? The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny o…

Yeah, that's the funny thing about the Ninth. It pretty much says, you shall not construe the other amendments strictly.

Kinda puts strict constructionists in a bind -- which was clearly its purpose.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#284

Post by forgiveme10k »

anon1385 wrote: post #69
rayiner wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4th amendment is strong as it has ever been, and the 1st is much stronger.[1] Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? If not that's the 4th amendment working as intended. What we have here is a system: 1) Clearly designed to pass a 4th amendment analysis; 2) Enabled to to pass such scrutiny be the unprecedented access Americans give corporations to the details of their private lives. For what its wo…

>The 4th amendment is strong as it has ever been […] Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? Yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_v._King Justice Ginsburg , dissenting. The Court today arms the police with a way routinely to dishonor the Fourth Amendment ’s warrant requirement in drug cases. In lieu of presenting their evidence to a neutral magistrate, police officers may now knock, listen, then…

"anything but google" this: "indiana no knock search without warrant"

I'm serious about "anything but google" "anything but google" this too if you don't believe me: "google search providing different results to different people"

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#285

Post by forgiveme10k »

shpxnvz wrote: post #191
rayiner wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 4th amendment is strong as it has ever been, and the 1st is much stronger.[1] Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? If not that's the 4th amendment working as intended. What we have here is a system: 1) Clearly designed to pass a 4th amendment analysis; 2) Enabled to to pass such scrutiny be the unprecedented access Americans give corporations to the details of their private lives. For what its wo…

> Are police knocking down your door without a warrant? If not that's the 4th amendment working as intended. Damn right they are. Exigent circumstances. [1] Police routinely coerce people into consenting to searches during traffic stops when there is no RAS. If there's a K9 unit around it's even easier; look at how often they just happen to trigger when there's no contraband at all [2]. Does a 56% false positive rate…

Yes, because the house is guilty until proven innocent!

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#286

Post by bostonpete »

mindcrime wrote: post #234
fpgeek wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know of any 2nd amendment supporters who are also not strong 1st and 4th supporters Are you sure? For instance, on cultural grounds, I'd guess that there are plenty of 2nd amendment supporters who would be happy to ban flag-burning...

I'd guess that there are plenty of 2nd amendment supporters who would be happy to ban flag-burning... There are indeed, and I know more than a few of them. They post on the same gun forums I do. What you see among the "pro gun" crowd is a pretty clearly ideological divide between Libertarians and traditional Conservatives. The Libertarians take the 1A, 4A, 5A, etc. just as seriously as the 2A, whereas the more tradit…

> many people seem to assume that most active 2A advocates

What's a 2A advocate? I don't think there's any substantial opposition to the 2nd amendment itself. The main discussion surrounding 2A tends to come up any time any sort of restrictions surrounding gun control are raised. Then the crowd of people who view any sort of gun control (background checks!!) as an attack on the 2nd amendment start coming out of the woodwork.

I believe that's the crowd that gets stereotyped and I don't believe they're representative of the majority of gun owners.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#287

Post by otsuichi »

rayiner wrote: post #190
otsuichi wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An interpretation of the word "reasonable" is literally all discussions of the 4th Amendment have ever come down to, you can't pretend like someone with a narrower scope or "reasonableness" is just haggling over semantics and nitpicking tiny details.

My point is that he's arguing about precisely where the line should be drawn, not offering an example of the police engaging in clearly unreasonable conduct. You can't claim that the 4th amendment has fallen by the wayside just because you disagree about precisely where the courts have drawn the lines in edge cases. You need some stronger evidence than that.

I think, looking at the facts of Kentucky vs. King, that's pretty clearly a concise example of the police engaging in unreasonable conduct.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#288

Post by swethrowaway »

People seem to speak in favor of guns (outside of stuff like hunting, sports, etc, which is not really relevant here) for two reasons:

1. Self defense against common criminals 2. Safeguard against tyranni

I would like to add a third reason:

3. Because I am a free man. Because I am sovereign. Because I hold inalienable rights. Because I harm no one by keeping arms.

I think the first and second arguments hold some weight[1] but really to me this is a freedom issue. I really don't think I NEED to provide a reason why I should be allowed to own a gun, same as I don't need to provide a reason why I am allowed to exist. It's very simple: no one - be it my neighbor or more abstract entities - has the right to infringe on my right to life and liberty. Part of that right to exist is the right to keep instruments of self-defense.

Now, there are a tons of gray zones (eg I don't think individuals have the right to build nuclear weapons in their back yard) but for guns it's very simple. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater here.

Can we really trust individuals to own guns? I'd say it's the opposite: the government is WAY less mature and responsible than individuals. The occasional misbehaving individual is a fart in the wind compared to the systematic, egregious misconduct of pretty much every government ever. Seriously, look at the track record of governments in the 20th century - not exactly a rosy picture. And if you look at history, it's always the nobility and such that are allowed to bear arms, and the unfree classes that are deprived.

I do believe in a minimal state, though, so I'm not an anarchist.

I am born and raised in Scandinavia btw, so I guess I'm a bit of an odd duck as pro-gun and libertarian :)

Posting as throwaway because this is somewhat controversial and I see no reason to incur negative social status in my social circles over something that is purely an academic issue in Sweden anyway (ie there is no pro-gun movement whatsoever here and anyone who espouses those kinds of views is insta-pigeonholed as a radical kook).

Anyway, I felt I needed to vent a little bit. I expect to be downvoted into oblivion. But, hey, at least provide a counter-argument, will ya? :)

[1] But I think some people are overestimating guns as a tyranny deterrent. The US military allowed each Iraqi household to have one Kalashnikov, for instance. That should tell you something.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#289

Post by forgiveme10k »

mindcrime wrote: post #251
randomsearch wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. But, how does owning a gun provide protection against the US military?

But, how does owning a gun provide protection against the US military? I don't understand why people keep asking this question, and variations of it, or offering up the argument "the 2A is useless for allowing rebellion since you can't defeat the US military". Bands of rebels armed with mostly light weapons have caused superpowers all sorts of issues: See Afghanistan, from the Soviet era through today. And if a full…

You're making a couple of unfortunate assumptions.

An already economically-weakened ConUS can expect the following: A domestic military with hardware that is failing left and right. A domestic military that has no ammunition because the "domestic security forces" bought it all. A domestic military that has no fuel. Foreign Fighters that are well stocked and equipped with advanced weaponry.

The real "rulers" don't consider this to be their own country. They are citizens of the world. ConUS contains several million nuisances that would be best killed in an expedient manner, such as by plague or nuclear attack.

In that kind of environment, it is less likely that having an AR or an AK in the attic will help the typical USian.

Re: Has the US become the type of nation from which you have to seek asylum?

#290

Post by [deleted] »

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #212
powertower wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen that list many times before and was even going to post it myself. I'm guessing you just skimmed over it and did not read the notes. So let me rephrase, how many school shooting can you count on your hands that you knew about? I'm guessing you won't make it pass your two hands. I'm not going to count crime infested ghetto area school shootings that involve a 70% dropout and incarceration rate, where one stud…

This is practically a lesson in the misuse of data. However you define the metric you're measuring, you should be comparing America to other countries. By any measure, America has more school shootings than most other countries.

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