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Google will expand age checks on Android worldwide till the end of the year

android-developers.googleblog.com

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Re: Google will expand age checks on Android worldwide till the end of the year

#281

Post by gambiting »

kelvinjps10 wrote: post #262
gambiting wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Of all the 3rd parties who could be responsible for this, I trust the government the least. Really? can you name any 3rd party you'd trust with this more than your own government? Given that you know, the government already has all of this info on us. This isn't a choice between "the government doesn't know how old I am" and "the government has all the info on me". Governments usually already do. They have enough d…

It’s not really about the info but restricting access to people. Imagine they restrict access to social medial to people with different political opinions as the ruling party in the government

The whole idea is that the government gives you a cryptographic token that proves you are over 18, but that token can be used anywhere. They don't get to say what websites can look at it, because...how would they.

Re: Google will expand age checks on Android worldwide till the end of the year

#283

Post by sisve »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #65
sisve wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how it's planned in the EU is it not?

Maybe? I'm not sure since the UK is no longer part of the EU; we're running quite a bit behind on this kind of thing now.

https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/eu-age-ver...

Re: Google will expand age checks on Android worldwide till the end of the year

#284

Post by Ukv »

Noaidi wrote: post #248
RandomGerm4n wrote: post #154

I'm fundamentally opposed to age verification because it usually leads to mandatory account creation no matter how privacy friendly the age verification process itself may be. It's already extremely annoying that, for example, on YouTube, you can no longer watch many videos without an account. Furthermore, the whole thing also reinforces monopolies. Once you've verified your age on one platform, the barrier to switch…

> for example, on YouTube, you can no longer watch many videos without an account. I do not like this argument. Does an adult theater let anyone in without an ID? Do movie theaters let kids under 18 into an R rated movie without ID? Why do we think this should be different on the internet? IMHO, they should have Youtube 18+ (Adult book store) where you need an ID and YouTube I think it is evil that YouTube enables ki…

> Why do we think this should be different on the internet?

Because when applied to the internet, the age gating model that works okayish for brick-and-mortar locations is ineffective (children can use a friend's older brother's ID or account, websites outside of the relevant jurisdiction can just decide not to verify age, etc.) and invasive (sending private and sensitive information off to US companies that have been breached or linked to mass surveillance). Lack of efficacy is then used to justify crack-downs on privacy tools and the need for broad content-blocking powers with no due process.

Preferable IMO would be with filtering on the local network level, like schools have been doing for decades. Parents typically own the router/mobile data plan, so it'd pretty much just be a change of defaults and maybe some new interoperability standards. A lot less invasive, and arguably more effective.

Re: Google will expand age checks on Android worldwide till the end of the year

#285

Post by mrguyorama »

kelvinjps10 wrote: post #249
grumbel wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how it should be. Make the Internet 18+ by default and sites targeted at younger audiences can add a more detailed rating. Let people configure their devices however they like it. The whole problem with the regulation we have right now is that it assumes the Internet is for kids, and everything for adults must be hidden. When we really just should declare the whole Internet as 18+ and the sites for kids should…

So kids shouldn’t have access to sites like Wikipedia? Banning the internet is not the correct solution many kids depend on the internet to have access to education. The argument could be made for banning social media but the whole internet I don’t think it’s the correct approach

If we had a "Safe for everyone" public internet and a locked down "Prove you are an adult" internet beside it, nothing prevents wikipedia from being on the Safe for Everyone internet.

Also, Encarta was a thing. Expensive though.

Some states would legislate wikipedia onto the "Adults only" web though because they don't like what it says about things like abortion and trans people.

A lot of ecommerce companies would probably be happy with a locked down adults only internet, because it would kick bot protection up a level, and would require a fairly robust solution to it.

Re: Google will expand age checks on Android worldwide till the end of the year

#286

Post by newsoftheday »

mrtksn wrote: post #187
RandomGerm4n wrote: post #154

I'm fundamentally opposed to age verification because it usually leads to mandatory account creation no matter how privacy friendly the age verification process itself may be. It's already extremely annoying that, for example, on YouTube, you can no longer watch many videos without an account. Furthermore, the whole thing also reinforces monopolies. Once you've verified your age on one platform, the barrier to switch…

At glance this looks reasonable but how do you enforce that kids connection always goes through the parents control? You are just moving the verification point to another gate, it means that no anonymous connections are possible anymore to the entire Internet because we want to allow parents to control their kids. You want to use your friends Wi-Fi? Now that requires full identification so that we know that its not s…

> At glance this looks reasonable but how do you enforce that kids connection always goes through the parents control?

YouTube doesn't, the parent does.

> no anonymous connections are possible anymore to the entire Internet

Adults would not be blocked if I understand the GP comment. It's an age recommendation and it's up to the parent's to control it for their kids.

> we want to allow parents to control their kids.

Yes. Google, YouTube, AI in general will never be a replacement for parenting and they should drop the charade now.

Re: Google will expand age checks on Android worldwide till the end of the year

#287

Post by wowyouredumb »

mrtksn wrote: post #187
RandomGerm4n wrote: post #154

I'm fundamentally opposed to age verification because it usually leads to mandatory account creation no matter how privacy friendly the age verification process itself may be. It's already extremely annoying that, for example, on YouTube, you can no longer watch many videos without an account. Furthermore, the whole thing also reinforces monopolies. Once you've verified your age on one platform, the barrier to switch…

At glance this looks reasonable but how do you enforce that kids connection always goes through the parents control? You are just moving the verification point to another gate, it means that no anonymous connections are possible anymore to the entire Internet because we want to allow parents to control their kids. You want to use your friends Wi-Fi? Now that requires full identification so that we know that its not s…

> At glance this looks reasonable but how do you enforce that kids connection always goes through the parents control?

Because the parent is there to parent them?

Somehow I (and presumably almost everyone here) grew up with unfettered access to the Internet until now. Your kid isn't my kid, and someone relying on a computer to parent their children shouldn't ruin computers for everyone.

Re: Google will expand age checks on Android worldwide till the end of the year

#288

Post by godelski »

iamnothere wrote: post #239
account42 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And instead of an age you could even make the indication about what is potentially objectionable so that parents can choose when to allow their kids to see what - and adults can also choose to avoid certain things.

Exactly, without this you’re handing the power to decide what is “appropriate” to someone else.

  > you’re handing the power to
The user?

Re: Google will expand age checks on Android worldwide till the end of the year

#289

Post by mrguyorama »

sschueller wrote: post #46
K0nserv wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want the market solving this. If we are going to do age checks it should be based on public key cryptography, be open source, and handled by the government. You verify with the government (or don't since they already know your age), you get some form of cryptographic attestation, present said attestation to websites/apps. I'm not a fan of age verification in the first place, but I am extremely not a fan of ra…

Why do we need to verify age? You can't tell me that these social media companies don't already know exactly how old someone is just based on the enormous data that is collected.

They would prefer to know, not estimate, which is why they are pushing these initiatives basically on their own accord.

Also, if you've ever played with this kind of data, there is immense overlap between how some adults and some kids use the internet. Is this user legally a child, or just emotionally a child? Similar to the problem of "There is overlap between the smartest bears and dumbest tourists" in designing bear proof garbage cans.

Re: Google will expand age checks on Android worldwide till the end of the year

#290

Post by nathan_compton »

mapontosevenths wrote: post #177
Okawari wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have cars, and kids are not allowed to drive them. Yet we do not have mechanisms in place to ensure kids aren't driving cars because the responsibility falls on the parents, and it works. By and large, parents understand the threats and navigate this requirement perfectly fine; outliers are few enough that we can deal with them on an individual basis. The reason the current system doesn't work when it comes to unf…

> The reason the current system doesn't work when it comes to unfettered internet access is either that parents by and large don't actually agree with the threat assessment of said internet access for kids, or they ignore it because the consequences of doing so are disproportionately small. Sometimes parents know their children, and what's best for them, better than faceless politicians (who we've seen are often attr…

I sympathetic to this perspective, as a parent, but also, there are just a lot of kids out there with bad parents.

My personal philosophy is that parents have a duty to raise their children but that duty is on behalf of the society into which the children will eventually enter. Consequently, a just society may sometimes impose itself on parental freedoms (in the case of neglect, for example) because, in the end, the child's ultimate guardian and responsibility is the society itself, not the parents. The internet is full of material exposure to which, for children, could reasonably be construed as neglect or abuse, and it is insufficient to leave the entirety of the responsibility to the parents, in that case.

I don't know why Americans are so obsessed with freedom as if were the only social good that a society can pursue. There are many things which make life worth living, that contribute to flourishing, and freedom is high on that list, but its not the only thing.

All that said, I don't approve of age checks of the sort being proposed everywhere now. We can do a lot better at mitigating these problems without damaging privacy so much.

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