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The Kimi K3 Moment

stephen.bochinski.dev

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Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#281

Post by JohnnyMarcone »

aliasxneo wrote: post #90

Even in this very thread the feedback on Kimi's actual efficacy is debated. I personally feel its worse than both Fable and 5.6 Sol, but I feel like the conversation isn't really about whether its good or not, but a backlash against the U.S governments foray into regulation. So I think people _want_ it to be superior out of anger/frustration with the current situation.

This seems like a replay of what happened with DeepSeek. They put out v3, or whichever one it was, and everyone said it was over for US companies... then everything continued on.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#282

Post by tristanj »

kamranjon wrote: post #248
nickysielicki wrote: post #33

Regardless of whether they achieved parity via distillation, or whether they got here via independently constructing a model from scratch, it was always going to end this way for the frontier American labs. Distillation “attacks” are not attacks. The frontier labs “distilled” all existing human written knowledge into their models, there was always going to be a second class lab that would distill that model into a ch…

The fact that API based distillation is even a conversation right now makes me feel like the U.S. has their heads so far in the sand that it’s not really excusable. These Chinese labs are producing novel models, publishing their techniques and sharing their open weights and the first topic of conversation is how they stole from U.S. AI labs. Setting aside the fact that it doesn’t make any feasible sense to do API dis…

There's little doubt that Kimi K3 was distilled off Claude.

Anthropic stated in February that Moonshot AI (the creator of Kimi) distilled ~3.4 million exchanges from Claude models, as explained in their press release https://www.anthropic.com/news/detecting-and-preventing-dist...

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#283

Post by gpm »

reinitctxoffset wrote: post #280
gpm wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great, let's go down to the courthouse and get some sworn testimony as to the ownership, value, condition, and so on and so forth of the bridge. And some document review and discovery run through professional legal firms under the same conditions. And perfectly reasonable and verifiable explanations as to why you own the bridge and are selling it (namely that you bought a copy of literally every book in existence in…

I think you're right to point out that historically the rule of law in the United States has been very robust by the standards of whatever era, it's been a tremendous advantage in attracting business and capital and talent, it's good stuff. But we've gone through some pretty weird times too. Turn of the last century was pretty tech billionaire edits, reconstruction was uh, not smooth, it's a mixed bag. And most takes…

I broadly agree with your take on the state of the US - but this is a case where given the specific facts at hand I'm confident it still got to the truth.

I can understand why as someone who didn't follow it and the more corrupt legal developments closely you wouldn't be confident in that.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#284

Post by villish »

SwellJoe wrote: post #8

I tried Kimi K3 on a task I've done with every other model I use regularly ( https://swelljoe.com/post/i-let-every-agent-implement-its-ow... ) and found it chewed a lot longer on the problem and ate up almost the entirety of a 5 hour usage limit on their $19 plan. I only have the $20 plan from OpenAI and the same task, with a lot of the same implementation details as Kimi Code, only took a few minutes and consumed al…

Do models know when they're being benchmarked? I also used K3 briefly and noticed it spent a very long time thinking and obviously a lot of tokens.

However I've seen some benchmarks say it uses fewer than fable which hasn't been my experience.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#286

Post by arcanemachiner »

genxy wrote: post #136
nickysielicki wrote: post #33

Regardless of whether they achieved parity via distillation, or whether they got here via independently constructing a model from scratch, it was always going to end this way for the frontier American labs. Distillation “attacks” are not attacks. The frontier labs “distilled” all existing human written knowledge into their models, there was always going to be a second class lab that would distill that model into a ch…

Look how hard Anthropic is to even be able scroll back on your conversation, or look at the thinking tokens or subagents. They want to keep everyone coming back to the watering hole but never to learn how to dig a well.

Did you enable the flicker-free TUI mode?

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#287

Post by osti »

wolttam wrote: post #256
WhyNotHugo wrote: post #240

Pricing is actually far cheaper than that. There's two tiers of pricing: Chinese and US. If you sign up with non-Chinese phone number, you're bucketed into US, you get US prices, can pay only in USD and with American credit card network. Chinese prices are about 9x cheaper than the US prices, which are already far cheaper than Claude or other American provider. If you can somehow get hold of a Chinese phone number, k…

It’s 100 yuan per million output tokens in China. That’s $14.7 USD - not “far cheaper”.

He's talking about the plans, you are talking about API prices.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#288

Post by andriy_koval »

joe_mamba wrote: post #191
andriy_koval wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Us models didnt pay for licenses too

We're still in the early days of the AI industry timeline(relative to traditional industries). Not everything has yet been litigated. Taxes on AI subscriptions or AI capable hardware, to financially compensate IP holders for (potential) IP theft, could very well arrive in the near future, once the industry is mature. If this shocks you and sounds preposterous, I'll remind you that in several EU countries, we still pa…

I think we are going to direction where AI corps will have stronger lobby compared to IP holders.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#289

Post by arcanemachiner »

ekidd wrote: post #206
dehrmann wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Subscription usage limits are hard to measure as none of the providers tell you directly what it means in terms of tokens or anything else you can easily compare AI subscription pricing is so goofy. You get some amount of usage that varies by models, is measured by opaque token usage, driven by how many tokens the (usually) vendor-provided interface (or model itself) wants to use. Then your usage is limited by time…

AI subscription pricing was fine when it was $100/month for some opaque 5 hour token budget I don't think I ever used, not even that one day where I coded for 14 hours non-stop using Fable. But like most people with low token usage, I had a human in the loop and and I didn't use workflows with swarms of agents. Now, of course, the plan is to remove Fable from the subscription. To paraphrase Darth Vader, they have alt…

They're probably not going to remove Fable. They just extended it for another month.

Re: The Kimi K3 Moment

#290

Post by matheusmoreira »

nickysielicki wrote: post #33

Regardless of whether they achieved parity via distillation, or whether they got here via independently constructing a model from scratch, it was always going to end this way for the frontier American labs. Distillation “attacks” are not attacks. The frontier labs “distilled” all existing human written knowledge into their models, there was always going to be a second class lab that would distill that model into a ch…

> Distillation “attacks” are not attacks.

Say it louder for the people in the back. All these complaints about "distillation" from frontier labs are bordering on felony contempt of business model at this point. It's great for us. Maybe it's bad for them but nobody other than shareholders really cares.

The optimal outcome for humanity is for oligarchs to spend trillions training a godlike AI, only for the precious weights to just leak. No "distillation" required.

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