Stephen Ruth sends his regards.
Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional
281–290 of 703 posts
Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
California's new speed camera pilot (AB 645) explicitly solves for this. Tickets issued by these cameras are civil penalties issued to the owner of the vehicle, like parking tickets, rather than a criminal moving violation. This means the tickets are just as constitutional as parking tickets. It also means penalties are limited to fines and can't impact your driving privilege or insurance. Hopefully other states can…
These systems are still often too expensive to operate safely. Over and over again these systems have been seen as needing to break even rather than being treated as a public service. But if they actually work then incidence of red light violations should go down, and hopefully substantially. So whatever fines you expect to receive in the first months before drivers adapt are more revenue than you should see at one y…
They are speed cameras, not red light cameras.
That said, the bill addresses this category of abuse directly: if a speed camera fails to reduce 85th percentile speeds or violation volumes within 18 months it must be removed.
There are also substantial limits on how the revenues can be spent. If you are interested in this topic it's worth a read: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...
Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional
#283Red light camera fines, like all sin taxes, should be made revenue neutral.
By that you mean the fines should be made much higher, right? Because traffic crashes have a huge economic cost.
Set the fines to any level, it doesn't matter.
I only mean that all revenues collected from the fines must be distributed to the public at large. They must never be treated as a revenue source for the government.
Sin taxes are meant to reduce bad behavior - or incentivize good behavior. Ideally you'd collect $0 in red-light fines because everyone's following the law. If some politician's budget or private company's revenue stream depends on traffic fines they have adverse incentives. I don't want my city council member voting against traffic safety initiatives because it makes people better drivers and that means less money for some other city program.
Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
Doesn't the same logic apply to parking tickets?
possibly, although I suspect the quote from above: > Although nominally civil, traffic infraction proceedings retain every substantive hallmark of criminal prosecution... Is going to matter here. A moving violation (ex: red light) is quite different from a non-moving violation (ex: parking) in how they're handled, and often how they're classified. Ex - my in state, a moving violation is a criminal misdemeanor, while…
there is no state where a moving violation is criminal misdemeanor. some moving violations may be CM but there are myriad of moving violations whose class/degree is not CM. CM is serious class/degree that if you are charged with it you better get yourself an attorney.
Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional
#285After reading the 21 page order, I do tend to agree with the judge The judge frames the red light camera scheme as a revenue generating scheme, not a public safety measure. Additionally, "A distinctive feature of the statutory scheme is its assignment of guilt to the registered owner rather than the driver of the vehicle". and "If there are multiple registered owners, the citation is issued to the 'first' registered…
As someone who lives next to an intersection where cars routinely run red lights, this truly sucks and I hope it gets overturned. I understand the judge's reasoning, but running red lights is dangerous and we need much stricter enforcement.
If people routinely run the red light, it seems like an easy case to post an officer to do traffic stops and issue tickets. AFAIK, tickets issued by a sworn officer are broadly constitutional.
Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional
#286I know this is not related to the legal merits of the case being discussed, but who runs a red light? In my experience, this is an infarction that occurs very infrequently. Speeding or illegal parking happen all the time, but running a red light? Most people are not suicidal. Edit: Nevermind, I think crossing on yellow and catching a tenth of a second of red counts as running a red light. If it does, it’s something I…
I mean I’ve run red lights but only because I live in a city and there are times where it would be impossible to turn left due to oncoming traffic. So you poke your nose out a bit so the other directions see you and turn when incoming stops but before new directions start.
Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional
#287Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s not how it works in the United States. I was driving my (female) partner’s car and received a citation. I gave the cop my license but he pulled the owner’s (my female partner) driving record using her vehicle’s license plate (is what I’m guessing happened) and issued her the citation instead of me. I was very excited since this meant I was going to get away without a citation. I gave her the citation and she c…
Why not just drive under the speed limit and sober instead of giggling about avoiding penalties while endangering us all? Note that not once did you mention that you were innocent.
> and sober
Why would you presume GP was drunk?
Also, it's completely common and safe to drive slightly over the speed limit in some circumstances, and in many parts of the US it's exceedingly rare for people to drive below the speed limit as you suggest. In many places the tickets are essentially written more for not seeing the cop and slowing down than for actually doing 78 in a 65.
Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not if the teen takes responsibility. So don't loan out your car to people who aren't willing to take responsibility for their actions. Surely that's not a massive burden?
Is that just?
Yes, vehicle ownership is a level of responsibility, I believe it is just to be accountable for what happens with it.
Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
If I lend a neighbor my kitchen knife and they murder someone with it, should I be liable?
When subpoenaed, you'd be obligated to tell the court who you gave the knife to. But if you'd like to tell the fall, I'm sure some prosecutors wouldn't dig too hard to find the guilty party.
It seems in this case they’re not asking, they’re accusing and saying I need to prove otherwise. I think that is substantively different
Edit: subpoena is not a criminal charge afaik is what I’m saying
Re: Florida judge rules red light camera tickets are unconstitutional
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
possibly, although I suspect the quote from above: > Although nominally civil, traffic infraction proceedings retain every substantive hallmark of criminal prosecution... Is going to matter here. A moving violation (ex: red light) is quite different from a non-moving violation (ex: parking) in how they're handled, and often how they're classified. Ex - my in state, a moving violation is a criminal misdemeanor, while…
there is no state where a moving violation is criminal misdemeanor. some moving violations may be CM but there are myriad of moving violations whose class/degree is not CM. CM is serious class/degree that if you are charged with it you better get yourself an attorney.
That quote is from the judge's decision: he considers that moving violations are quasi-criminal proceedings, and as such, that the protections for criminal prosecution apply, unlike in purely civil cases.