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Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

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Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#281

Post by cortesoft »

bflesch wrote: post #162
surajrmal wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unpopular opinion, but we would be better off with a single open trusted implementation of anti cheat (aka drm) which can attest whatever requirements are desired by the game is met. The only real problem is that it would likely be limited to approved kernel images and someone would need to own that validation and signing infrastructure, but you could imagine having multiple trusted entities have this role.

Kernel anticheat is not really effective because it can be circumvented on the hardware level, for example using direct memory access with a second computer and screen to show the hidden game state. Cheating is a meat space problem and there is no technical solution to it. Thats why in tournaments there are referees standing behind the players. Ultimately it comes down to checking if metrics like reaction speed are h…

This is theoretically possible, but I don't think most cheaters would have the equipment or skill to do this. Cheating is only rampant in games where people can just buy and download cheats... if it requires a lot of skill and hardware, it won't be a big issue.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#282

Post by maccard »

Thaxll wrote: post #94
soloridindan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the moment you accept data from the client as truth you've lost the battle already, everything else is just damage control. Loads of games have realized this and kept checking game rules on the serverside and reveal data on a need-to-know basis. This makes it nearly impossible for cheats to be made because anything you know you should know, and everythin you act is parsed by the backend according to rules alr…

This is not how it works, most games that take cheating seriously already have a gameserver where most of the gameplay logic happen. Doing everything server side does prevent cheating.

Eventually you have to send data to the client and they have to send you back what they did. Assuming you’re running a game server with 240hz updates, on a 120hz monitor with no buffering, on a low latency connection in the same location to your data center, the absolute bare minimum amount of latency you can plan for is about 15ms from server to on screen, and back again) - 8 ms each way, 4ms for the server tick, and 5ms each way for networking. Now move 100 km from the server, or add in double buffering, and you’re closer to 50-60ms. That means at any given time you know there’s a deviance of between 0 and 50ms between your state and the clients - and a client can and will exploit that.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#283

Post by cortesoft »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #234
999900000999 wrote: post #119

I'm ordering a new laptop to work on LLM stuff, and while I thought about jumping through the hoops to get Linux running with secure boot... I had a realization, it's a cold day in hell when someone else is going to tell me what I can run on my computer. All the latest multiplayer games are now requiring secure boot on Win11 as well I'm actually wary of all these anti-cheats, they're literally hyperinvasive maleware.…

What irritates me is when games that don't even benefit from anti-cheat require it. Helldivers 2, for example. My dudes, it's a co-op game. My teammates and I are all on the same side! Moreover, the vast majority of people are gonna play with their friends, not randoms. And if your friend is using a cheat and it bothers you, you just ask him to stop. There's no reason for a game like Helldivers 2 to require anti-chea…

The best games with anti-cheat have an option to launch without using it, but just restrict what game types you can play. Playing with friends should be allowed without anti-cheat.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#284

Post by maccard »

ChocolateGod wrote: post #178
Ukv wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think those performance concerns are really much of an issue with any sensible implementation. You'd do line of sight checks against simplified geometry first to handle the vast majority of cases, and you'd load character models/textures in advance (game/match startup) rather than only when they first appear on screen. One non-trivial part seems to me that if you walk around a corner you don't want to wait 50…

You have to do line of sight checks based on the players entire FOV, which requires the server to know this in realtime with little latency. This is unworkable for fast paced games.

This is unworkable for even slow paced games.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#285

Post by maccard »

jsheard wrote: post #7
hastily3114 wrote: post #4

Is there really no way to make anti-cheat on Linux that can't be bypassed? I don't know much about this, but it seems very difficult to make an anti-cheat for a platform where you can make changes in the kernel.

A trusted entity (probably Valve) could provide a locked down distro where kernel integrity is enforced through secure boot and TPM attestation, but that would mean giving up some control over your own system. There's no guarantee that anything client-side is impossible to bypass of course, but the goal would be to more or less match what Windows offers, which isn't perfect either.

This is what a console is.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#286

Post by josefx »

Kuinox wrote: post #217
hamdingers wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All true, but of course you're missing the player agency component that renders those issues moot. If any of the above happens, you can simply find another server. Private games (now called "custom lobbies") were available back then too, they're not equivalent to a public server browser.

They are functionally equivalent for the player. The problem with player hosted servers is that it was very hard to get a fair and balanced competitive match, where now it's extremely common with matchmaking on servers hosted by the game company.

> The problem with player hosted servers is that it was very hard to get a fair and balanced competitive match

Playing against overwhelming odds has its own kind of charm. I once spend days just sabotaging the top players on some gun game servers, only wining myself once or twice. Games against friends with various fun handicaps and flat out abuse of any knowledge you could gain from playing against the same people repeatedly - what good is a hidding spot when everyone knows you will be there 50% of the time.

"Fair and balanced" games against completely random people are just missing something for me.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#287

Post by cortesoft »

lwansbrough wrote: post #223

Anti-cheat is a necessity for an enjoyable game experience. If you are a casual who doesn’t care about game integrity, you probably aren’t the target audience. I don’t want any cheaters in my games. I don’t care if a rootkit is required. Riot has a kernel level anti-cheat and it’s _really_ good. It’s so good in fact that it deters most cheaters from even trying. This is the dream for anyone who wants fair games.

I agree with you, but I think the best solution is just to let people run the game without anti-cheat, but they can only play with other people who also opt-out of anti cheat (or choose to allow themselves to be matched with people who opt-out).

Then people can choose to either accept they have to install a rootkit anti-cheat, or want to risk facing cheaters in return for not having to install the anti-cheat.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#288

Post by LMYahooTFY »

t-writescode wrote: post #258
LMYahooTFY wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't the reason. The reason it's necessary is because players want to be able to play with/against other players around the world. Matchmaking requires some form of anti-cheat. Running your own server as admin can't give you the degree of competitive global ranking that players enjoy today. And cheating is an arms race. It's just hacking. You either preserve game integrity or you're going to have cheaters.

How did it work in the early Steam (CS 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, CS:S) and GameSpy days?

More distributed and more manual. More administrative overhead. More localized culture we all get nostalgic for. Much more effort to play against peer competitors.

It's the same phenomenon you see in many sectors.

Access is democratized and the friction/barrier to play is dramatically lowered/free, and the localization is diluted or non existent and just a monoculture.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#289

Post by cortesoft »

nkrisc wrote: post #40
jsheard wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some kinds of cheating can be mitigated that way, but it can't really stop cheats which just play the game more optimally than the user is able to, using the same inputs and outputs that a legit player would use. Aim assistance in shooters, automatic parries in fighting games, economy-breaking levels of automation in MMOs, and so on. There's also practical limits to how much data you can filter out in complex 3D game…

You could probably detect those kinds of cheats heuristically on the server. There are limits to human ability. It’ll take more time to catch the cheaters, but I’m sure it’s possible. This player is posting 30 auctions per second. Bot. This player is turning at a rate of 500 radians per second to make perfect headshots. Bot.

The cheat could just be tuned to play at the level of the best humans.

Re: Games using anti-cheats and their compatibility with GNU/Linux or Wine/Proton

#290

Post by maccard »

trinix912 wrote: post #123
zeta0134 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. That also means it doesn't have to be kernel-level rootkits that fundamentally break the security model of my operating system and risk my bank account. Most people will be stopped by userland anticheat, right? It's inconvenient. So ... put it *there.* And if someone does the kernel bypass thing, well, rely on server-side heuristics (which are imperfect, but also unknowable to the attacker) and you'll discourag…

The problem with userland stuff is that it’s trivial to download and doubleclick an EXE (that acts as a fake anticheat or whatever). Anyone can do that, but not anyone can simply “patch the kernel” and such.

> Anyone can do that, but not anyone can simply “patch the kernel” and such.

Sure they can - download this pre-patched ISO and boot it in QEMU. Now you have a modified kernel, _and_ you’re not running dodgy spyware on your PC.

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