Live data from Hacker News

James Watson has died

nytimes.com

281–290 of 303 posts

Re: James Watson has died

#281
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There wasn't ever a "moment" when they "discovered" the structure of DNA. The closest thing is Franklin's Photograph 51 which took about 100 hours to compile and then took another year to do all the calculations to confirm the position of each atom. Watson and Crick (without the consent of Franklin) saw this Photograph, did some quick analysis, and came up with a couple of models that could match Franklin's photograp…

It's important to realize that "Photograph 51" wasn't "Franklin's" -- it was taken by Raymond Gosling, a grad student mentored by Franklin and Maurice Wilkins. What happened was that Wilkins chose to share the data with Watson and Crick. Yes, he maybe should have consulted with Franklin first (and certainly with Gosling, whose opinion nobody seems to care about). In any case, while Franklin certainly didn't get along…

Watson was the main man, that's why we say "Watson and Crick" and not "Crick and Watson". Why did she not get along with Watson, I wonder?

Re: James Watson has died

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my previous comment, I was talking quite explicitly about political taboos, not societal taboos. When I was a kid, the general population of Czechoslovakia would not be shocked by a joke about stupid drunken Soviet Communists, but if someone snitched on you, that joke would still land you in prison. As with Iran (and I noticed your Persian handle), I absolutely understand that there is a lot of agnostic and skepti…

I don't see what your definition of 'political taboo', which seems to be related to top-down restrictions on speech or behavior, has to do James Watson's remarks. There are few explicit or implicit rules about making racist claims that don't incite violence/hatred in most western countries (unlike the example you gave in Iran), or if they are, Watson didn't seem to suffer much for 'breaching the taboo'. Watson was sh…

"I find it interesting"

Certainly sounds like a personal jab, but HN is based on good-faith discussion, so I won't dig deeper into it.

If you are interested in my motivation, it is not building a ladder of world's populations according to IQ and boasting about being somewhere in the upper half. I am more concerned with the fact that such taboos are slowing down our research of natural intelligence to a crawl.

The West is no longer a dominant civilization on this planet. The US seems to be very afraid of the possibility that Chinese AI research will overtake the American one. I find it very short-sighted that a similar concern is absolutely absent when it comes to natural intelligence research. There is a shitton of underdeveloped natural intelligence around as, and if our political adversaries manage to actually develop it first, the AI race may not matter at all.

Of course, that is a big "if", much like with railguns etc. Some technologies never bear fruit. But historically, we have seen extreme concentrations of brain power in some time-and-space limited regions (Hungarian "Martians"?), which indicates that there is a lot more underdeveloped talent than we think and that it could be, given the right methods, developed to overwhelming dimensions.

For Pete's sake, we cannot even recreate Bell Labs as they once were. No one precisely knows what was the actual magic that had them going, even though everyone has their favorite theory. It reminds me of alchemists doing experiments in the early 1600s. Aren't you a bit nervous about the fact that phenomena such as Bell Labs emerge on their own and disappear without us being able to create them on purpose? We must have wasted a lot of human potential by not knowing how to harness and develop top talents.

"analyzing or evaluating ..."

This is quite obviously a vicious circle. The topic of natural intelligence is taboo, scientists who try to attack it earnestly face a lot of hurdles in funding (see also [0], an interesting article), thus the amount of actual data is remarkably small, and, as you yourself say, even the definitions aren't really good. Which, in turn, leads a lot of people to cloak their disgust over the entire topic in a plausibly sounding word bubble like "there is not enough data, it is all so nebulous and murky, there is no sense in studying such a weird topic, don't spend any money on it and don't play with any dangerous hypotheses".

[0] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/09/13/can-progressiv...

Re: James Watson has died

#284
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to realize that "Photograph 51" wasn't "Franklin's" -- it was taken by Raymond Gosling, a grad student mentored by Franklin and Maurice Wilkins. What happened was that Wilkins chose to share the data with Watson and Crick. Yes, he maybe should have consulted with Franklin first (and certainly with Gosling, whose opinion nobody seems to care about). In any case, while Franklin certainly didn't get along…

Watson was the main man, that's why we say "Watson and Crick" and not "Crick and Watson". Why did she not get along with Watson, I wonder?

I'm not so sure about that -- Crick had a much more productive scientific career post structure than did Watson (who went into administration instead). He also had the mathematical skills needed for interpreting crystallography data that Watson lacked (Crick had studied physics as an undergraduate while Watson had studied zoology).

As for why Franklin and Watson didn't get along, you can get some idea from Watson's own writings -- Watson liked to talk and joke around and Franklin wasn't interested in that sort of thing, at least not during work hours.

Re: James Watson has died

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given he said it in 2007, pretty much no evidence to back it up. Genetic differences between races are small compared to those within races, so much so that the concept of races does not really stand up scientifically. He seemed to have been basing the comments on IQ tests, which are not really a good way of comparing groups of people with different cultures or education. They score an individual within a group of co…

> Genetic differences between races are small compared to those within races. That is a very misleading statement. Height differences within sexes are also greater than between sexes, and yet most men are taller than most women.

There are multiple significant biological differences between the sexes. There are not between races. Different races do not have entirely different organs for a start!

Re: James Watson has died

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Genetic differences between races are small compared to those within races. That is a very misleading statement. Height differences within sexes are also greater than between sexes, and yet most men are taller than most women.

There are multiple significant biological differences between the sexes. There are not between races. Different races do not have entirely different organs for a start!

The parent to my post shared a common fallacy, and I’m just showing how distributions work in a way that most people will agree with and understand. You should appreciate my post if you are interested in proper statistical comprehension.

Re: James Watson has died

#288
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Genetic differences between races are small compared to those within races. That is a very misleading statement. Height differences within sexes are also greater than between sexes, and yet most men are taller than most women.

No your the one that's being misleading, genetics isn't height and race isn't a coherent genetic category. It should be noted that Watson knew this hence why he was focused on the one thing you can say very definitely about black people in America, that they have darker skin then white people and thus was trying to tie melanin to to intelegence.

Distributions are distributions. I have not stated anything on the race and intelligence issue. I am just calling out a statistical fallacy.

Re: James Watson has died

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares? Lots of assholes have done lots of great things. Some of the most important people in history have been assholes.

I care. His legacy is tarnished by being a bad human being, when it is pretty easy to be a decent person. It’s worth recognizing the accomplishment without lauding the person. Especially when the accomplishment is built on basically stolen/unacknowledged work. I’d rather have more Rosalynd Franklin in the world than more James Watson.

But he wasn’t a bad human being. He did things so great they completely outweigh anything you’ve ever done. At the very least, he’s a much better human than you.

If we accepted peoples’ completely biased views of what makes a human “good”, that’s how I’d respond. But we don’t, which is why that would be a ridiculous response - just as ridiculous as pretending that being a meanie-head makes you a “bad person”.

Re: James Watson has died

#290
post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watson was the main man, that's why we say "Watson and Crick" and not "Crick and Watson". Why did she not get along with Watson, I wonder?

I'm not so sure about that -- Crick had a much more productive scientific career post structure than did Watson (who went into administration instead). He also had the mathematical skills needed for interpreting crystallography data that Watson lacked (Crick had studied physics as an undergraduate while Watson had studied zoology). As for why Franklin and Watson didn't get along, you can get some idea from Watson's o…

> Crick had a much more productive scientific career post structure than did Watson...

But we are not talking their later work. The issue under discussion is their DNA structure work, and for that Watson wa the main one in their collaboration.

> Watson liked to talk and joke around ...

This euphemistically dances around the issue.

Post reply on HN