ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation • Hacker News Board

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#281

Post by s1artibartfast » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:22 PM UTC

tomrod wrote: post #160

OutOfHere wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what happened here is that the parents were here illegally. The children just had to accompany the parents. I find it quite possible that the children will be allowed back in once they no longer have to depend on their parents.

> here illegally I have to wonder what horrors and shames ones pathway of life must have taken to think a person existing in a space is summarizable as illegal. A person cannot be illegal. They cannot exist in a space illegally. They could enter a space illegally. They could be unauthorized to be in a space. But by simple fact that they exist in the world, if the law makes them illegal to exist, then that law is unju…

I think this is the rhetoric that drove the country to this point. They are here illegally. They can exist elsewhere legally.

Respect for law is critical, and valorizing the breaking it undermines the very concept of society.

If you want more immigration, work to increase legal quotas and update the law.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#282

Post by gpm » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:25 PM UTC

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #257

gpm wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mother and child were in custody, the father was not, and was prompt in acquiring legal counsel, arranging this, and suing, leading to exceptionally clear circumstances in this case. This is the docket for the lawsuit: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69940863/v-m-l-v-harper... The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted wh…

> The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted when the father attempted to give a number for the attorney to the mother. Based on your wording alone, would it be safe to say the mother was unable to avail herself of counsel before making a decision?

To the extent that they let the mother make a decision, which is itself unclear, I would say all evidence points to that.

We only really have the father's and judge's account of events here.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#283

Post by vessenes » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:25 PM UTC

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #204

whimsicalism wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's remind ourselves of the text of the 14th amendment: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” > It has been proposed that the US citizenship model was always like the Swiss model - you could only be a citizen if you were born of at least 1 citizen (naturalized or otherwise). For reasons…

IANAL, but interpretation of: "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" seems critical to make a determination on whether you are correct or not. Take the act of a random french spy who goes to the UK for the purpose of defecting, without express permission of either government. Does that make him a subject to the UK crown? I think the historical outcome of such situation would be crystal-clear.

SCOTUS ruled on this over a hundred years ago, in the case of a child born in the US of Chinese immigrants who went to China in his 30s, and was denied re-entry. Denial theory: Chinese citizens are subject to the Chinese emperor annd therefore aren’t subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

SCOTUS response: “LOL”. 6-2 (1 abstention) in favor of him being a citizen. The majority assent lays out pretty clearly that the jurisdiction language was to except diplomats and Native American tribespeople who had different treaties and status.

The Wong Kim Ark ruling is super, super, super clear that it would only be in EXTRAORDINARY circumstances that the 14th wouldn’t apply. For instance, two people in an invasion force sent by King George to take back the colonies have a baby with each other on US soil: probably not a citizen. Even then, if those two were in prison and had the baby: probably a citizen. Baby of two diplomats: not a citizen (called out in the ruling).

The dissent says: The 14th was really about Dredd Scott, and giving former slaves born in US soil full citizenship rights, and therefore “jurisdiction” is obviously only for naturalized citizens: Mr. Ark didn’t seek citizenship and therefore didn’t have it, since he wasn’t a former slave or child of a former slave, the 14th doesn’t apply.

The current attempt to reframe the 14th while including the Ark ruling relies on the very novel idea that anyone in the country without permission is not “subject to the jurisdiction of the US”. ICE’s actions clearly bely that take. It’s not a tenable angle to try and get rid of birthright citizenship, full stop.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#284

Post by datameta » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:26 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #158

miltonlost wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh wow, what a choice! Imagine, having a gun to your head and saying "but i had a choice!" In no way can you say that these people, given no legal advocates, chose to bring their children, or at least freely chose.

Being eventually forced to decide whether to leave your child behind or take them with you out of the USA is a direct consequence of the choice to illegally enter the country. Are you suggesting we never deport parents under any circumstance? Having a citizen child is not some get-out-deportation-free card.

This is like claiming that getting conscripted into the Russian Federation Armed Forces is a direct consequence of entering illegally

So is their life forfeit now, and the respective goverment absolved of responsibility?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#285

Post by gpm » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:27 PM UTC

op00to wrote: post #226

gpm wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mother and child were in custody, the father was not, and was prompt in acquiring legal counsel, arranging this, and suing, leading to exceptionally clear circumstances in this case. This is the docket for the lawsuit: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69940863/v-m-l-v-harper... The mother was also technically able to speak with the father, though monitored, for less than a minute, and they were interrupted wh…

You do seem to be defending the actions by asserting that it was the parents decision rather than an action forced by ICE.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion.

I am arguing by pointing to the most clear and egregious violation of the law and human rights, that isn't meant to excuse any other violations.

I am not asserting that ICE followed any of the parents decisions, so I don't see that I could have possibly accidentally implied that ICEs actions were ok because they made the parents make an impossible choice and then followed it.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#286

Post by mgkimsal » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:30 PM UTC

scarface_74 wrote: post #152

pge wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current administration has set targets for numbers of people deported(which ICE is currently behind on). That creates an incentive to skip due process in order to get more people deported more quickly (and the awareness that there will no consequences for doing so probably contributes as well)

And while trying to meet those numbers, they are being specifically told not to do mass raids of farms and other business in red states that will hurt Trump voters

I suspect it's Trump donors they may be looking to spare, at least a bit. I don't get the impression they care about previous Trump voters very much, except to buy merch at this point.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#287

Post by olddustytrail » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:30 PM UTC

rsyring wrote: post #203

elmerfud wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last statement is correct. They are just emboldened by the current political environment. Any law enforcement has a problem where all they see is criminals all day everyday, now we know they aren't always criminals, but that's their view point. There should be sufficient checks and balances to ensure that due process is still upheld. What we're seeing now is the lack of checks because law enforcement feels they…

Without qualified immunity, no one in their right mind would want to work in law enforcement. LE would become an easy target for malicious litigation where the cost/effort to defend would, itself, be the weapon, regardless of whether or not the lawsuits were won. LE personnel would have to get insurance, like doctors, which would be crazy expensive and, considering their pay scale, unaffordable. I don't like some of…

Scotland doesn't have the concept but we still have police officers. I think England is the same.

You can't really claim that something is absolutely necessary when there are countries that don't have it.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#288

Post by morkalork » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:31 PM UTC

scarface_74 wrote: post #152

pge wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current administration has set targets for numbers of people deported(which ICE is currently behind on). That creates an incentive to skip due process in order to get more people deported more quickly (and the awareness that there will no consequences for doing so probably contributes as well)

And while trying to meet those numbers, they are being specifically told not to do mass raids of farms and other business in red states that will hurt Trump voters

Also, businesses caught employing illegal immigrants seemingly don't face any punishment either. Migrants wouldn't enter the US illegally if they couldn't find employment, and they wouldn't find employment if businesses were harshly punished. As it is, everyone is incentivized to keep this cat and mouse game going.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#289

Post by ohgr » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:31 PM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #197

ohgr wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As my wise but now throughly dead German grandmother said: ”Do you think the nazis appeared out of thin air? No they were everywhere just waiting for someone to enable them with a label and an ideology.” I suspect something analogous is happening here and it’s similarly not pretty. Hopefully it’ll get nipped in the bud quickly. My fellow citizens scare me more than the government does.

I too have noticed the same language coming out of folks here, folks that have had accounts for over 10 or 15 years. They were always here, but now they emboldened and they are doing their best to make sure that overton window stays very very open on the right.

I had a friend until recently. Really nice guy. Always looking out for people. Never said a bad word. In the last couple of years he turned into a nasty piece of work jumping on every politicised story out there and treating it as gospel. He alienated everyone around him.

It turns out that some people don't have a mind of their own and are waiting for orders.

Here is no exception. Look at the foaming at the mouth praise of the second coming of Microsoft when Satya took over. And where we are now? Look at the hype as well - blockchain, crypto and AI now. Mindless people slithering all over everything.

In fact I find a lot of the people in the technology sector to either be entirely morally bankrupt or lack any kind of self or societal awareness of their speech of actions. It disgusts me. I've been on HN pretty much since day one but the accounts last perhaps 6 months before I tire of it.

I moved out of the tech-first industry about 10 years ago and into a position of tech as a tool not a reason for a business existing and there are better people here.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#290

Post by conor_mc » Sat, Apr 26, 2025, 4:32 PM UTC

retzkek wrote: post #132

sanderjd wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the children's citizenship was solely one of birthright Under the US Constitution, this is not a distinction. What you're looking for is just "the children's citizenship" without this qualifier that signifies nothing under the law. The better alternative is to aggressively enforce employment laws against employers . Immigrants come here and stay here to work.

And then, what? Are citizens beating down the doors to do these jobs but getting out-competed by migrants? Are these the same citizens who are lining up to do sweatshop labor when manufacturing “returns” to the US? If undocumented workers are finding productive work in an economy with low unemployment then the problem is that the government is not facilitating them gaining legal status.

We do have a chicken and egg problem. I think the idea here is that it's a systemic issue and the enforcement is focussed on individuals. This is analogous to the concept of getting everyday people to recycle when the companies creating the products have greater control over how much garbage is produced.

Employers need to stop taking advantage of undocumented workers at artificially suppressed wages. This has acted like a subsidy keeping these poor business models afloat. This has led us to the situation we are in now, where we've become dependent on undocumented migrants (food production etc), who we are being taking advantage of (lower wages, less rights), and also trying to villanize & deport them (the article above). All simultaneously.

It's possible with careful coordination of industry, legislation, and immagration, we wouldn't be here. But now that we are, we need to either find a way to improve the situation or reverse it.