An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation • Hacker News Board

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#281

Post by pierat » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:53 PM UTC

ttyprintk wrote: post #254

pierat wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Privilege? No, most African and Middle Eastern governments just have shitty governments based on an even worse religion. At least Western governments have the idea of Universal Human Rights ( https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... ) And being 'accepted' or not is wholly different than 'executed' or 'jailed for life'. And for me, it's simple: don't go to most of Africa or anywhere in the Middl…

You’re both right, because the definition of white privilege does include “White people become more likely to move through the world with an expectation that their needs be readily met.”

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Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#282

Post by polski-g » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:54 PM UTC

Tao3300 wrote: post #250

DeathArrow wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>PSF has some moral views I thought the reason PSF exists is to promote Python, not to have political views.

https://www.python.org/psf/mission/ > The mission of the Python Software Foundation is to promote, protect, and advance the Python programming language, and to support and facilitate the growth of a diverse and international community of Python programmers.

By prohibiting African Python programmers from taking part because of their political views, how does that promote "diverse and international communities"?

Are anti-LGBT Africans not diverse enough?

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#283

Post by bee_rider » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

0xDEAFBEAD wrote: post #129

mmtml wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point was not properly made on their behalf. That said, do the organizers of the conference have any saying on the politics on their country and actually deserve to be punished because of them? I don't really think so.

Indeed. Would the PSF deny funds to an event in the USA due to Trump's Muslim ban? How about if a country has a big pro-Israel or anti-Israel protest that the PSF doesn't like -- is that a legitimate reason to deny funds for events in that country? An event like DjangoCon in Tanzania is most likely going to be a tiny step forward for LGBT rights there. The organizers are probably more liberal than the average Tanzani…

Organizations should absolutely have avoided funding events in the US while we had a Muslim ban. The US is a big market so unfortunately some organizations sell out their values and do things here anyway. But we should obviously be held to the same standards as everybody else.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#284

Post by washadjeffmad » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

jzb wrote: post #237

sampo wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> asked for the funding fewer than five months before the event The Python Software Foundation says that they need less than 6 weeks for processing grant applications: https://www.python.org/psf/grants/

Yeah, just dug that up myself. I still feel that you ask for funding and then plan the event, if the funding is crucial, but clearly the PSF set an expectation that it didn't live up to. Note the same FAQ, though, says this: "There is no set maximum, but grants are awarded with consideration for the annual PSF grant budget and that events/sprints will be virtual...with that in mind are willing to consider up to $2,50…

In case you've never organized events before, it's a bit of a catch-22. You need to be prepared to accomplish what your funding request entails before you are awarded, to the degree of satisfaction of the grantor.

When the criteria and timelines are unclear, as they were here, the requestor is put in a position where budgeting becomes a more serious jeopardy to an event than any planning concern.

The PSF should have responded. There's really no cause for what they did, even if it was only miscommunication.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#285

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

yaksha wrote: post #244

hluska wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are you comparing someone’s identity to a substance? How does that analogy even fit? Do you consider that you might be offending some people or was that your goal?

Is sexual preference an identity or component of an identity? I would consider my identity a private matter for me to fully determine. Not all portions of said identity need be public, or publically expressed at all times. Why is what the parent said offensive? Is it necessary for everything to never offend anyone ever?

[deleted]

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#286

Post by ExoticPearTree » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 4:01 PM UTC

leadingthenet wrote: post #263

biorach wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The distinction between developed and developing countries you think is so clearcut is actually not so clear "the Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of sodomy laws in Bowers v. Hardwick in 1986. However, in 2003, the Supreme Court changed opinion and reversed the decision with Lawrence v. Texas, invalidating sodomy laws in the remaining 14 states: Alabama, Florida, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississi…

That looks like the rule of law working as expected to me?

You do realize that 20 years ago it was wrong to be gay in various US states, right? And I'm saying this with the consideration that most of the world sees the US as the most advanced country on the planet.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#287

Post by colpabar » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

nomdep wrote: post #278

mrweasel wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at the map of the "LGBT rights by country or territory"[0] it is also not clear to me where people would suggest that the conferences be held. Zanzibar seems like one of the few places that would work, along with Botswana, and a few others. Some of the other countries that might work have completely different safety issue, regardless of your sexual orientation. I think realistically, someone has the well mean…

I don't think is unreasonable at all. Anyone can do a conference wherever, the PSF just don't want to sponsor conferences in places under those conditions

But this is exactly like sanctioning a country ruled by an oppressive regime because the regime is oppressive. You're just punishing the people who are already oppressed!

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#288

Post by acdha » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 4:02 PM UTC

polski-g wrote: post #282

Tao3300 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.python.org/psf/mission/ > The mission of the Python Software Foundation is to promote, protect, and advance the Python programming language, and to support and facilitate the growth of a diverse and international community of Python programmers.

By prohibiting African Python programmers from taking part because of their political views, how does that promote "diverse and international communities"? Are anti-LGBT Africans not diverse enough?

Nobody is prohibited from attending based on their political views. It’s only a question of whether those views cause someone to negatively impact other attendees that they have a problem. You can be completely anti-LGBT as long as you’re mature enough to only talk about Python at a Python conference.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#289

Post by hackinthebochs » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

pierat wrote: post #231

rbanffy wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked, as an apostate, I'd have a death penalty waiting for me in many countries that operate under such religious laws. Also, if they know I am an apostate, and they ask me that at the border, I'll have to choose between death because I am an apostate, and death by a likely more painful method because I am an apostate and I also lied to a customs officer.

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You know how you change opinions in those places? By interacting with them. Exporting your culture, like conferences and such. Shunning does nothing to accomplish the goal of a more open society. Engagement moves the needle.

Re: An Open Letter to the Python Software Foundation

#290

Post by ExoticPearTree » Wed, Dec 06, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC

isodev wrote: post #125

orbital-decay wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many places in Africa are sufficiently "developed" based on your definition? Should they postpone all Python conferences until they develop the rule of law? People from the countries that implemented progressive policies sometimes show unreasonable arrogance by expecting the whole world to change instantly according to the freedoms they're used to at home.

Or maybe accept that when you’re organising a global event, you need to be able to provide a safe space keeping in mind that you’re hosting guests that don’t necessarily embrace your “way of life”.

You can't do that. For the same reason Africans might be offended by customs in the US.

I feel like this discussion is going places where it was never supposed to go.