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Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

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Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#281
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and maybe move the conversation forward What does this actually mean, in the context of "when we fired people, we considered their race"?

Or, "when we fired people, we tried NOT to consider their race" ... the idea that a layoff would, by default, be fair and not a racist or bigoted decision is a very privileged world view.

> is a very privileged world view.

I guess this is probably true. In every group I've worked for, it was obvious who the high and low performing people were. In the two companies I was at, with layoffs, there weren't really any surprises. Not surprisingly, this has remained a strong motivator for my work effort: if you're complacent or incompetent, you're the first to go.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll believe this was actually racially blind when Twilio releases a count of each race that was laid off, and the sum of each race for employees in the company prior to the layoff. It's very simple for everyone to verify whether there was racial targeting outside the statistically probable bounds of random selection from the parent group. I have no problem with people being woke as long as we're both working towards…

That's not good enough. They could just lie. You need a formal audit conducted by a third party. Anything else is unacceptable.

That’s what discovery is for in a court of law. Hopefully we all get to read the findings.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please enumerate all the races first and the criteria to distinguish each race from the other. It will be important for your statistical analysis.

No need. You can use whatever Twilio defines because they obviously must have defined something to be able to state they acted anti-racist. (The reality of the whole thing is so obvious that they paid some contractor to say they’re antiracist without actually changing anything they did.)

Hell if you wanted to go full Machiavelli, you might say that's in there to distract from the layoffs themselves - seems to work in this thread for instance.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the same privilege is not extended during layoffs it will unfairly impact them. By unfairly you mean fairly.

It is brutally unfair to hire by one standard and then suddenly hold them to a higher one. And fairness aside, if you do not look through an anti-racist/anti-oppression lens you would destroy years of work of improving company diversity.

Does this imply that you think that minority candidates that were hired were not as qualified as non-minority candidates? That's the only way I can parse your statement that these affirmative action hires were hired by one standard and then held to a higher standard when fired.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#286
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure if you are white and laid off, you will have a pretty strong case for a lawsuit. I can't believe someone in legal wouldn't warn the leadership that putting out a press release stating this was a good idea.

Legal probably approved the word "lens". And if this ends up in court they will say that "lens" means that we are aware of the impact layoffs have on our society, but does not change who we fire during a layoff, meaning even if we didn't do this through a lens the person suing would have still been let go.

If the layoff was done through the lens of racist consideration, and minority races were given preference, then the odds of a white or Asian person getting fired were higher.

That's already illegal. Even if you can somehow prove in court that "white worker X" would still be fired had he been black (already a dicey and likely impossible feat), just the fact that the employer already admitted that this worker was under more risk for getting fired due to his race, a-priory creates a cause of action against the employer.

If I say "I give preference to hiring men over women", and a woman is rejected and then sues, trying to show that I would not have hired her even if she was a man is arguing from a losing position.

The policy itself is racist and illegal.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

woke came out of aave and was more widely popularized in 2014 via blm edit: parent edited from "woke" to "woke culture gone wild" after i posted this

It’s literally in the platform of the Republican Party to “fight woke culture”

Many lefties, myself included, see identity politics as a means to divide the working class and ignore class issues. It isn't only that, there are real idpol issues. However, fixing the class issues is how we will achieve better outcomes for all, including underprivileged minorities, but also poor white people. Thanks for coming to my ted talk.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#288
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You refer to the original/early version of CRT. In the 90s and beyond, CRT has expanded substantially in scope. It has also changed focus in terms of how it is utilized.

Could you recommend some texts responsible for the change in scope? My understanding of CRT is that race is entirely a social construction, and that the laws and attitudes surrounding race are primarily informed by this social construction and not anything with real biological basis. When did that change?

The Wikipedia page is not bad.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory

Note that Ladson-Billings & Tate (1995) was the widespread introduction of CRT into the field of education, which I think is the bit of CRT that is creating a lot of the fuss these days.

Here is an article by Ladson-Billings:

https://www.loyola.edu/-/media/join-us/karson-institute/docu...

Short summary of how CRT is perceived these days:

https://www.economist.com/interactive/united-states/2022/07/...

This is a decent short article that explains how crt is being attacked in ways that are not “core” crt:

https://theconversation.com/critical-race-theory-what-it-is-...

In general, you can search for “critical race theory in $FIELD” and find out how the ideas have expanded beyond law.

In my personal experience, here is what I have seen and experienced that has gone far beyond what core CRT is about:

1. CRT and postmodernism in academia often go hand-in-hand. In a gross over-simplification, this means that everything is socially constructed and there is no absolute truth. These ideas have merit and a place in academic research, but the reductio ad absurdum cases (some listed below) are not a really good look for a solid theory.

2. There are groups of people who call themselves liberals who cry “that’s racist” at what seems like every opportunity they can. When you engage them on the topic, they will sometimes begrudgingly acknowledge that they are referring to structural racism (which is not a difficult case to make). When asked what they would like me (or people like me) to do about something that I cannot control (being white), they don’t really have an answer other than “don’t be racist”, which isn’t what structural racism is about. These folks completely debase a very valid argument by invoking it in (imho) inappropriate ways, seemingly just for the sake of protesting or getting under the skin of moderates and conservatives. They don’t seem to realize that their actions are sometimes (often?) alienating the types of folks whose support that they need/want (i.e., open-minded moderates who do not want to be overtly and loudly labeled as racists due to structural racism).

3. In academic work (my first career), anything that is CRT-related becomes almost unassailable in review. The academic rigor in most CRT topics is laughable because, as designed, any rigor is considered oppression of some sort. The sad thing is that there is a small amount of really well done research that gets thrown in with the less good stuff, but it is all fairly tainted due to overall lack of rigor.

3a. Note that CRT topics and researchers are embraced at universities and some journals because it makes it much easier for them to reach diversity targets and publication targets (getting published in some sort of a CRT-themed journal is super easy, much like getting published in some sort of a tech-themed journal is super easy).

4. I have seen white people told in elite university classrooms that they should only be validating what non-white people are saying in the classroom discussions. This is despite the professor openly encouraging exchanging a diversity of views.

5. I have seen half-white people openly denounce the white half of their heritage because… reasons? In one specific case, an Asian American female who looks very Asian denounced her “white privilege” when probably 90% or more of her privilege came from her Asian side (her Asian side is well known in the community and is relatively wealthy, while her white side contributed mostly hard-to-see genetic privilege). In another case, a half white half Puerto Rican male who looks very white and has a white name aggressively denounced his white side and did academic research about the Puerto Rican struggle against the white man — as though he had any idea what it was like. His personal narrative research (popular in CRT) revealed that he had issues with his white father, and that was pretty much the source of all of his rage. Of course, based on CRT tenets, his research that was more about father-son and/or familial relationships became about racism writ large (unreasonably and inappropriately imho, even though the topic is very worthy of study). There are many, many cases like these.

6. For academics who are white, straight, males in the US, it is extremely difficult to get tenure in non-STEM departments/fields at high tier universities unless you go all in with CRT and post-modernism. Even then, it is tough. On the one hand, I appreciate that there is a wider range of views and life experiences that are represented in these fields. On the other hand, I am sad that a large swath of the US pool of potential academics is almost a priori excluded from becoming researchers in these fields. Note that I had tenure, so this didn’t effect me personally, but I have seen the impact on others (mostly in terms of opting out of an academic career).

Note that I have some personal opinions that jibe with the data but aren’t really popular (which is one reason I left academia):

- Every society has one or more privileged groups. This will be forever true.

- The vast majority of privilege is determined by socio-economic status (SES). In the US, the numbers that seem to keep popping up are that about 5-10% of differences in most measures can be accounted for by race, and most/all of the rest is SES. Note that the one/main area that this may not hold true is in criminal prosecution in the US (not a legal scholar, so I’m not sure).

- Changing SES is very difficult across generations, and I think I t’s a topic worthy of study. I think affirmative action in the US has made some useful progress in this area, but not in the ways that are typically cited. Incremental changes in SES are something that are measurable and achievable. Most attempted at large-scale change in SES have failed and will fail, imho, largely because it’s easy to change the E part of SES, but it’s much harder to change the S part (the much more salient part, imho).

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They apparently laid off white people at a higher rate than they would have. Otherwise the statement about using an anti-racist lens would be incredibly misleading.

"Than they would have" if what though? They just allowed subconscious racist biases to affect their decision making? It's not like we lack evidence that this does in fact happen. If an "anti-racist lens" means anything other than "processes to help avoid the effect of subconscious racial bias" I'd agree it's a problem.

The opposite of anti-racist isn't racist.

You are assuming the decision makers have subconscious racist biases. And you are assuming those biases favor white people, men, etc.

In the world I live in there is a good chance that each of these is false. The fact that they made this statement indicates as much.

Re: Twilio to lay off 11% of workforce

#290

(I am a black man) I feel like the statement that the layoffs "were carried out through an Anti-Racist/Anti-Oppression lens" puts a target on the backs of the people who you claim to be helping. If you're affected by layoffs described this way, you then question whether that was because of who you are. That then makes it harder for the minorities you claim to be "helping" to stay in the room anywhere else because of…

"I feel like the statement that the layoffs "were carried out through an Anti-Racist/Anti-Oppression lens" puts a target on the backs of the people who you claim to be helping." How do they know who is what race though? If I am 50% latino / 50% asian what does that mean? Do you get to pick? Or do they test my skin color? Do they have forms to fill out what race you are? Do they do genetic testing? Depressing racism i…

Latino gives +1 point while Asian in tech gives -0.90 not quite the -1 for white but pretty close. Good news is you come out net positive.
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