What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes? • Hacker News Board

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#281

Post by balfirevic » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 4:25 PM UTC

namdnay wrote: post #265

balfirevic wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't take namday's comment at face value without some kind of citation. It could be that it works similarly to Croatia - it's not illegal, but if you are found to be "a hidden employee" you simply owe taxes and retirement/healthcare contributions as if entire income of your single-employee company was your salary. It could be that it's actually illegal in France. But many people are confused about how it works…

I completely agree with what you say, it depends on the specific setup (specifically, whether a judge will consider that it was an employment relationship). My statement was in response to someone who was clearly describing an employment relationship: > The "employee" creates a single-person company in Poland

Yes, I was also referring to a scenario where you create a single-person company and have a single source of revenue from a de-facto employer.

Is it really illegal in France or do you just owe more taxes/contributions than if you had multiple clients (which would allow you to take part of the revenue as company profits, instead of having to channel it all as a salary)?

Looking at your comment [0] it sounds like it might not be illegal (provided you pay the required taxes/contributions)?

[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32320422

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#282

Post by spamizbad » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 4:27 PM UTC

PheonixPharts wrote: post #189

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #104

The people I know who are still inside (Google) seem optimistic that maybe the company is taking a pause to deal with some of its bureaucracy and internal politics issues and with people's complaints about perf. I suppose that's good. From my perspective: They've got way too many people doing a lot of meh work and feeling really ... important about it. And it's on the whole asphyxiating the industry.

> And it's on the whole asphyxiating the industry. My understanding was that asphyxiating the industry was always the plan. For those who worked in industry pre-2008, one of the major drivers that allowed new startups to be so disruptive was that startups could very often compete with the then major tech companies on compensation. If there was a difference in pay, it was usually minor and could easily be made up for…

If you're only talking about salaries, I feel like even pre-2008 most big software companies always paid better than startups. It was stuff like RSUs and cash bonuses; which came AFTER the IPOs, that REALLY tipped the scales and made it difficult for startups to compete. Startups themselves never responded with more generous stock options; in fact, compared to the 90s, some became stingier.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#283

Post by dixie_land » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 4:28 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #276

itstomkent wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of insane that on the one hand we have folks playing lip service to "anyone can learn to code" and on the other, decent developers being so rare that to hire one you need to offer compensation equal to winning a minor lottery for just 2-4 years worth of work. I wonder how much more software would get written if it didn't cost $250-500K/yr for a single developer.

You literally can go on indeed.com and check for "$250-500K/yr for a single developer". It. Does. Not. Exist. Yes there are a few at FAANG that do make this, but this isn't the current market.

Google level (L3/4/5 etc) * 100k is a very realistic expectation for TC. At L7 or above double that number too.

Source: recent offers and friends who recently got offers

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#284

Post by ideamotor » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 4:28 PM UTC

PheonixPharts wrote: post #189

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #104

The people I know who are still inside (Google) seem optimistic that maybe the company is taking a pause to deal with some of its bureaucracy and internal politics issues and with people's complaints about perf. I suppose that's good. From my perspective: They've got way too many people doing a lot of meh work and feeling really ... important about it. And it's on the whole asphyxiating the industry.

> And it's on the whole asphyxiating the industry. My understanding was that asphyxiating the industry was always the plan. For those who worked in industry pre-2008, one of the major drivers that allowed new startups to be so disruptive was that startups could very often compete with the then major tech companies on compensation. If there was a difference in pay, it was usually minor and could easily be made up for…

That sounds correct since this is exactly their product business model.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#285

Post by aksjdhmkjasdof » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 4:30 PM UTC

yuan43 wrote: post #139

> As several of these statements blatantly contradict one another, I went back to the data and ran the same sanity check that I did with Facebook above. In other words, what if Google is using the hiring freeze as a smoke screen and only continuing with the strongest candidates, while keeping the rest on the bench? An actual hiring freeze sends a very strong negative signal to employees and investors. To employees it…

>An actual hiring freeze sends a very strong negative signal to employees and investors. To employees it says "the ship is sinking." Layoffs are right around the corner and that is absolute poison to morale.

I don't agree with this analysis. I'd be shocked if Google did any layoffs (though it's always possible) instead of just freezing hiring and letting natural attrition happen for a while. As for the signal to employees, there are so many employees already that I imagine many would be agree that the company is too big. It doesn't mean that the ship is sinking, just that they don't need an infinite number of employees. And Google's products are so dominant that you can't really believe the business is failing.

Now, FB on the other hand... I'd feel a lot more antsy, yeah. Their business doesn't feel nearly so stable.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#286

Post by cmrdporcupine » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 4:31 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #282

PheonixPharts wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And it's on the whole asphyxiating the industry. My understanding was that asphyxiating the industry was always the plan. For those who worked in industry pre-2008, one of the major drivers that allowed new startups to be so disruptive was that startups could very often compete with the then major tech companies on compensation. If there was a difference in pay, it was usually minor and could easily be made up for…

If you're only talking about salaries, I feel like even pre-2008 most big software companies always paid better than startups. It was stuff like RSUs and cash bonuses; which came AFTER the IPOs, that REALLY tipped the scales and made it difficult for startups to compete. Startups themselves never responded with more generous stock options; in fact, compared to the 90s, some became stingier.

Yes, as I said elsewhere the equity portion in startups is decidedly non-competitive for anybody but founders.

"tldr options" @ https://equity.ltse.com/calculators/tldr-stock-options is an eye-opener to see just how meh the packages offered are.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#287

Post by zeroonetwothree » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 4:34 PM UTC

washbrain wrote: post #266

jahnu wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t have to cost that. You probably can hire people remotely. E.g. Almost nobody in the EU will cost you that much. Most good devs are less than €100k total cost.

100k - accounting for pay, benefits, office space, training, hiring, computing equipment, support services (hr, etc)? In the States, those things can exceed the salary cost of the engineer.

Plus if you are US based communicating in real time with Europe is a pain. And many EU countries have strict labor laws that limit working hours. Managers don’t want to have to get up at 6am just to meet their reports.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#288

Post by cycomanic » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 4:35 PM UTC

willcipriano wrote: post #272

forgingahead wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When asset prices increase quickly, everything is fine, as the wealthy are benefitting. When wages increase though, that's inflation and we must tamp down hard on it!

This is the federal reserves stated position. https://mronline.org/2022/05/26/u-s-federal-reserve-says-its...

This is absolutely ridiculous, maybe they should start by reducing his salary.

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#289

Post by devin » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 4:36 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #276

itstomkent wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of insane that on the one hand we have folks playing lip service to "anyone can learn to code" and on the other, decent developers being so rare that to hire one you need to offer compensation equal to winning a minor lottery for just 2-4 years worth of work. I wonder how much more software would get written if it didn't cost $250-500K/yr for a single developer.

You literally can go on indeed.com and check for "$250-500K/yr for a single developer". It. Does. Not. Exist. Yes there are a few at FAANG that do make this, but this isn't the current market.

It absolutely does exist.

Source: Nearly everyone I came up with as a programmer is in the 250+ range, and not just at FAANG. Check out https://levels.fyi

Re: What’s going on with Google and Facebook hiring freezes?

#290

Post by zeroonetwothree » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 4:37 PM UTC

_gabe_ wrote: post #136

phailhaus wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We entered a technical recession by the "two quarters of contracting GDP" rule of thumb, but labor numbers are still strong and that second quarter contracted less than the first [1], which is not what we've usually seen when entering a recession. [2] [1] https://www.bea.gov/news/2022/gross-domestic-product-second-... [2] https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/gdp-...

I've never understood how strong labor numbers negate a recession. Like sure your money is worth less because of all the inflation, and your COL keeps increasing but your wages remain the same, but hey we have lots of people working. Maybe somebody smarter than me can explain how these two correlate lol.

Inflation has nothing to do with recessions either.