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Scotland starts renewed case for independence

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Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#281

Post by brnt »

carnitine wrote: post #24
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

I’d say post-Brexit England has drifted away from the far right. The whole EDL/Britain First/UKIP sentiment has only waned massively since then. The ruling government has not come close to far right at any point.

Overton window in action: the far right is the new normal, so the old far right isn't necessary anymore. New 'parties' will soon aim to achieve another shift.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#282

Post by forgingahead »

scott_w wrote: post #156
dankboys wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing says "British far right" like a Cabinet full of ethnic minorities.

Our Home Secretary has just instituted an illegal policy of deporting African and Asian refugees to Rwanda. Irrespective of the colour of her skin, her actions are those of the far right.

"Illegal"? There is no right to settlement of anyone in any sovereign country of which they have no citizenship in. It's entirely dependent on the laws of that sovereign country, and those laws are (usually) in place because of the preferences of the voting constituents, ie, actual citizens of the sovereign nation.

You are throwing around "far right" as a slur in this discussion and that doesn't address facts or the truth of the matter.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#283

Post by atlasunshrugged »

waffleiron wrote: post #266
atlasunshrugged wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the EU has been happy to use America's defense guarantee to subsidize their own defense for a few decades that doesn't exactly ring true. That said, I do understand the need for EU strategic autonomy, especially since the U.S. has been pushing for it since at least the Obama administration but I just found it odd that the U.S. would be lumped in with China. One's influence I'd say is clearly malign, the ot…

>One's influence I'd say is clearly malign, the other often at least tries to be mutually beneficial. A Chinese citizen would say the exact same thing, countries switched out. Both countries do whatever is in their own best interest, it's naive to pretend otherwise. Now what's in the U.S. best interest might have historically been more aligned with the EU, but that doesn't mean it stays that way.

Sure they would, and one country is actively committing genocide and one isn't. I'd say objectively there are differences in the actions a nation takes in its own interest. If there really were no constraints on actions a nation would take this would be a much darker world and I think the U.S. would have taken much more coercive actions against the EU in preferential trade policy and beyond long ago.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#284

Post by HyprMusic »

Gordonjcp wrote: post #157
physicsguy wrote: post #46

With hard headed view, I struggle to see that an independent Scotland will be economically able to deal with large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required. Per capita spending is already higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. Scottish companies have debts denominated in pounds. There would almost certainly be capital flight to rUK. Large businesses may relocate. There is no plan…

> large cuts to public sector spending that would almost certainly be required Why do you think that? We already raise more in taxes than we spend, and right now Scotland is heavily subsidising England.

Can you provide any sources for that claim? Full fact does a breakdown that concludes this is not true - https://fullfact.org/economy/scotland-finances-whisky-tax/

It doesn't mention if it includes Northern Sea oil as part of that, but the Governments research goes into more detail and does include oil: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN06...

Of course numbers can be manipulated either way but it doesn't appear to be as clear cut as "Scotland is heavily subsidising England".

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#286

Post by Veen »

cstross wrote: post #17
afavour wrote: post #2

As a Brit that didn’t want Scotland to be independent last time around: good luck to them. Brexit has shown very clearly that Scotland wants to chart a different path to England and IMO they should be allowed to do it. …just be generous to English folks seeking asylum from Tory rule, yeah?

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

> While since 2017, England has increasingly drifted towards the far right.

I suppose it depends on your definition of “far,” but from an English perspective this seems like nonsense.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#287

Post by tjpnz »

ggm wrote: post #78
madeofpalk wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I have always joked that Sydney should just succeed and become it's own city-state...

NZ was offered statehood and wisely declined. Our loss. Treaty now!

It would go a long way towards reversing New Zealand's brain drain.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#288

Post by niyaven »

dgb23 wrote: post #186
carnitine wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because fracturing your country and making it poorer and smaller probably isn’t desirable?

Decentralization is a key to robustness. I can't speak for this particular case. But generally I think it is desirable to have. Real sustainable progress often happens in the small and builds bottom up. People in different regions have different needs and ways of doing things. Distributed power leads to less exploitation.

You obviously haven't been to Belgium, which has 6 governments (and prime ministers) for a country that has the size of 1/10th of Italy. Decentralization has benefits, yes, but as for everything there are limits to it.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#289

Post by ericmay »

ChildOfChaos wrote: post #176
cstross wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For non-UK people: There are four nations in the UK (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland). But England has roughly 90% of the population of the UK. So what England votes for in an all-nations referendum, the rest of the UK gets. England voted for Brexit by a narrow-ish majority. But Scotland voted against Brexit by a huge margin -- 62/38, or approximately 3:2. Ironically, the year before the Brexit referendum…

Yes but does it matter? How far do you break those stats down, it's just a matter of manipulating them to get whatever point you want. Say you break it down to a single street which might have voted 90% remain, should that street then be declared independent? There are always going to be areas that believe stronger in one idea or another but that doesn't mean those areas should be separate from each other, the whole…

Yea I think you’ve really got a great point here overall. Personally I think smaller government is better, and it makes sense that Scotland could or perhaps should become a separate nation from the rest of the UK. But… you can’t support that without also supporting Brexit IMO because there is no meaningful difference in philosophy here.

The main challenge for Scotland is EU membership if they break away. It’ll get vetoed by Spain who doesn’t want Catalonia to break away. Frankly, perhaps unfortunately, I don’t see Scottish independence in the cards for that reason. Fostering nationalistic, anti-UK sentiment for political power is a dangerous game to play when you’re going to remain in the UK and is loosely akin to all the pillow-rattling that Texans do about seceding. It also somewhat contradicts the mission of the EU. Why stop at Scotland? Why not Catalonia? Or Brittany? How does this not give fuel to secession movements in the US as well? You can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t “support self-determination except when I disagree with who is self-determining”.

Re: Scotland starts renewed case for independence

#290

Post by LeonidasXIV »

veltas wrote: post #115
easytiger wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will you feel the same way when the EU seeks the end of veto powers (as is currently happening)? https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/european-parliament-a...

Don't know why this was downvoted into oblivion. Seems like the point adds to conversation, isn't rude, ignorant, etc. Whether or not you might agree with them.

Because it is a loaded question (check the wording) that also mostly backfired.
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