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Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

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Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that coders as an industry are destroying the road behind us, since there isn't really a road between "warehouse worker" and "software engineer", unless someone has the knack for coding (in which case there's a very clear and well-paved road within the company between those roles) I think the best solution is to empower workers via unions or whatever else. It should be impossible for workers to get gro…

Massive salaries for programmers won’t last forever. Most people here on HN are self-taught; it’s a skill a large number of motivated people can pick up. Eventually, large corporations will feel comfortable lowering wages once they have a secure grip on the market, and the tools programmers today made will be used against the next generation. It’s no different from millennials resenting boomers for burning economic b…

> it’s a skill a large number of motivated people can pick up.

Most people are not very smart (comparatively), but that is what these types of jobs are looking for.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#283
post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment is typical of people with an average or high IQ. There are people whose IQ is so low they can't even be legally enlisted in the army (the ASVAB test the Army does correlates with IQ). Some people won't have the same learning ability you have. I also thought that everyone could learn to program and organised bootcamps and education for developers (for free) - it turned out only a fraction of the people I'…

As a mostly private teacher of mathematics with 7 to 10 years experience for both, children at schools and adults at university, and both, individuals and groups, and both, those who struggle and those who do not, I'd like to share my narrow experience and disagree. Most people I worked with struggled with something entirely different than the actual content they are trying or forced to learn. I am certain the bigges…

Appreciate your insight. I believe you're speaking accurately from your own experiences, but I do have another anecdotal countering viewpoint.

Like many on HN I went to a top engineering school. there I saw about 2/3 of my colleagues drop out within the first two years. At least half of them worked tirelessly and efficiently to pursue their goal, and still failed. This was a large public school that will admit basically everyone with a pulse into engineering, with the expectation most will fail out as unfit and filter into some of the programs my college was less known for.

I did not have a particularly exceptional upbringing, and went to a middle of the road country school without any special preparations that would advantage myself over these other middle-class white people I saw. I'm not saying this to brag, because no doubt many of these people are far more successful than me in other fields (one I know went on to become a doctor for instance) but there is definitely something at play that different people are 'wired' for different tasks. I could almost sleep through much of the engineering curriculum and remain near the top while I saw many smarter people than me struggle tirelessly with engineering; something else was going on in our minds.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How we live is so different from how we ought to live that he who studies what ought to be done rather than what is done will learn the way to his downfall rather than to his preservation." Machievelli Most people are selfish and act in their own self interest despite what virtue signaling on social media they may do. You really think people are willing to risk their 6 figure salaries for some anonymous warehouse wo…

Your argument is that people are not lazy or ethically incompetent, but rather just straight up evil. Is that a fair characterisation? If so, I don't find it compelling.

Are you addressing this part of their comment or the previous piece?

> You really think people are willing to risk their 6 figure salaries for some anonymous warehouse workers...

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that coders as an industry are destroying the road behind us, since there isn't really a road between "warehouse worker" and "software engineer", unless someone has the knack for coding (in which case there's a very clear and well-paved road within the company between those roles) I think the best solution is to empower workers via unions or whatever else. It should be impossible for workers to get gro…

A really great way to be able to quit your job and take a coding bootcamp is to make enough money that you’re not living paycheck to paycheck and can survive for a few months while you retrain. Poverty restricts your options and keeps you in survival mode. But the overall point is that unions rely on solidarity, and any coder adding filters to an amazon chat app or whatever dystopian crap amazon is pulling next is di…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I defend this because the union system, where the government mandates companies engage in exclusive bargaining with unions, is illiberal, unfair and economically destructive. What's fair is the right to quit. Nothing beyond that. No one is entitled to a job that some other party furnishes, and to effectively force that company, via labor regulations, mandated negotiation advantages for unions, etc, to provide them a…

The existing government mandates - aka "laws" - exist as a compromise. They prohibit a company like Amazon from engaging in certain practices, and in exchange, some union practices are prohibited. I'm fine with dismantling all laws limiting corporate interactions SO LONG AS all laws limiting unions are similarly lifted. Get rid of Taft-Hartley, and bring back "jurisdictional strikes, wildcat strikes, solidarity or po…

>>The existing government mandates - aka "laws" - exist as a compromise. They prohibit a company like Amazon from engaging in certain practices, and in exchange, some union practices are prohibited.

There is nothing of note that unions could do, that isn't enabled by contract-liberty-violating labor regulations and wouldn't break the law. Picketing Amazon's premises, and beating up replacement workers, as the illegal strikes of the past did, was justifiably punished by the state before the labor regulation era, and for that reason, unions had very little power.

All the power they acquired came from laws that abridged the freedom to contract.

>>The economic power of the Boston Journeymen Bootmaker's Society came from the ability to quit - collectively.

Industry would gladly give unions the power to collectively quit, if it meant they too would have their contract liberty restored, so they could choose to not employ unionized workers, or to replace them without government punishing them.

>>I'll counter when a decidedly not benign - the Ludlow massacre, where companies worked with the government to attack striking coal workers, including firing MACHINE GUNS at them and their families.

This leaves out a seminally important precursor to the attack on the striker's camp:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludlow_Massacre#Strike

>>When leasing the sites, the union had selected locations near the mouths of canyons that led to the coal camps in order to block any strikebreakers' traffic.[17] The company hired the Baldwin–Felts Detective Agency to protect the new workers and harass the strikers.

"block any strikebreakers' traffic" means viciously attack and sometimes murder strikebreakers, who were there to replace them.

The strikers were a violent force, engaging in aggression. The only basis for their actions is a victimhood narrative that argues the employer and replacement workers do not have a right to their contract liberty when workers strike. If you accept this illiberal premise, then of course any violence that strikers engage in is justified, and any response is a "massacre".

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#288
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only takes a few seconds to find a keyword in someones comment history: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Why would they search specifically for "cancel culture"? It seems pretty obvious that the individual didn't search but instead took the time to try and find anything they could to make OP look bad.

What you are describing is deeply, deeply pathological. You think people on HN of all places would do that? I mean I guess it is possible but shit man, I don't even know what to think about that.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#289
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I defend this because the union system, where the government mandates companies engage in exclusive bargaining with unions, is illiberal, unfair and economically destructive. What's fair is the right to quit. Nothing beyond that. No one is entitled to a job that some other party furnishes, and to effectively force that company, via labor regulations, mandated negotiation advantages for unions, etc, to provide them a…

If you're interested in maximum freedom of choice, didn't people clearly choose that unions are supported, in large enough numbers to get it written into lawbooks? Or are businesses somehow more free than people, so laws don't apply to them?

>>The Wikipedia entry for the NLRA specifically points out how it's meant to support contract liberty.

I think you're confusing the freedom of the majority to repress the rights of the minority, with "contract freedom", i.e. the right to free assocation.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"How we live is so different from how we ought to live that he who studies what ought to be done rather than what is done will learn the way to his downfall rather than to his preservation." Machievelli Most people are selfish and act in their own self interest despite what virtue signaling on social media they may do. You really think people are willing to risk their 6 figure salaries for some anonymous warehouse wo…

Your argument is that people are not lazy or ethically incompetent, but rather just straight up evil. Is that a fair characterisation? If so, I don't find it compelling.

No not evil. My observation is that people are pragmatic (hence, machiavelli and the arguments of moral ethics).

My observation is that why should we expect highly paid tech workers to conform to some higher ideal. They have more to lose.

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