Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor” • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#271

Post by ls15 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:56 AM UTC

tenebrisalietum wrote: post #20

iamdamian wrote: post #16

For anyone who is concerned about the level of authoritarian control companies like Amazon have over employees, you might find the book Private Government worth a read: https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691176512/pr...

Why would you use a work-provided chat app to discuss things the company may not like? For example, do you not expect your employer to know if you're browsing for another job over company provided Internet on company provided laptops? If they were spying on the guest Wifi, that's another thing.

> Why would you use a work-provided chat app to discuss things the company may not like?

In a digital company like Amazon, I can imagine that it is very hard to reach your co-workers in any other way. Most likely there will be no public list of email addresses or phone numbers, so what other options do they have if they want to bring up unionizing to their co-workers? Nowadays you cannot just catch people at the factory gate.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#272

Post by shreyshnaccount » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:57 AM UTC

chii wrote: post #184

grapeskin wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech workers can skip FAANG’s 300k salaries and still do fine with 180k at a more ethical company. Those people are responsible. The people slaving for 50 cents over minimum wage and still being unable to pay rent don’t have much of a choice.

> skip FAANG’s 300k salaries and still do fine with 180k at a more ethical company. Those people are responsible. they are ethical, or altruistic, but certainly can't claim they are financially responsible. If they don't have dependents (now or in the future), then they can remain financially irresponsible, because it will have little effect. But if they plan on having dependents such as children, they will need the…

When you unironically say that resources like housing and education are scarce, that shows how messed up our world is right now.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#273

Post by eesmith » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:57 AM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #249

uncomputation wrote: post #49

> The major goal of the program, Amazon’s head of worldwide consumer business, Dave Clark, said, was to reduce employee attrition by fostering happiness among workers — and also productivity. Shout-Outs would be part of a gamified rewards system in which employees are awarded virtual stars and badges for activities that “add direct business value,” documents state. At the meeting, Clark remarked that “some people are…

I defend this because the union system, where the government mandates companies engage in exclusive bargaining with unions, is illiberal, unfair and economically destructive. What's fair is the right to quit. Nothing beyond that. No one is entitled to a job that some other party furnishes, and to effectively force that company, via labor regulations, mandated negotiation advantages for unions, etc, to provide them a…

The existing government mandates - aka "laws" - exist as a compromise. They prohibit a company like Amazon from engaging in certain practices, and in exchange, some union practices are prohibited.

I'm fine with dismantling all laws limiting corporate interactions SO LONG AS all laws limiting unions are similarly lifted.

Get rid of Taft-Hartley, and bring back "jurisdictional strikes, wildcat strikes, solidarity or political strikes, secondary boycotts, secondary and mass picketing, closed shops, and monetary donations by unions to federal political campaigns." (quoting Wikipedia).

Commonwealth v. Hunt shows unions don't require enabling laws. The economic power of the Boston Journeymen Bootmaker's Society came from the ability to quit - collectively.

> these tactics by Amazon are extremely benign.

I'll counter when a decidedly not benign - the Ludlow massacre, where companies worked with the government to attack striking coal workers, including firing MACHINE GUNS at them and their families.

That's literally the origin of the National Labor Relations Act of 1935.

The law that you seem so much against.

> blatant violations of its contract liberty

The Wikipedia entry for the NLRA specifically points out how it's meant to support contract liberty.

] Under section 1 (29 U.S.C. § 151) of the Act, the key principles and policy findings on which the Act was based are explained. The Act aims to correct the "inequality of bargaining power between employees who, according to the Act's proponents, do not possess full freedom of association or actual liberty of contract and employers who are organized in the corporate or other forms of ownership association".

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#274

Post by Groxx » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 6:59 AM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #249

uncomputation wrote: post #49

> The major goal of the program, Amazon’s head of worldwide consumer business, Dave Clark, said, was to reduce employee attrition by fostering happiness among workers — and also productivity. Shout-Outs would be part of a gamified rewards system in which employees are awarded virtual stars and badges for activities that “add direct business value,” documents state. At the meeting, Clark remarked that “some people are…

I defend this because the union system, where the government mandates companies engage in exclusive bargaining with unions, is illiberal, unfair and economically destructive. What's fair is the right to quit. Nothing beyond that. No one is entitled to a job that some other party furnishes, and to effectively force that company, via labor regulations, mandated negotiation advantages for unions, etc, to provide them a…

If you're interested in maximum freedom of choice, didn't people clearly choose that unions are supported, in large enough numbers to get it written into lawbooks? Or are businesses somehow more free than people, so laws don't apply to them?

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#275

Post by throw93232 » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 7:03 AM UTC

grapeskin wrote: post #157

uncomputation wrote: post #49

> The major goal of the program, Amazon’s head of worldwide consumer business, Dave Clark, said, was to reduce employee attrition by fostering happiness among workers — and also productivity. Shout-Outs would be part of a gamified rewards system in which employees are awarded virtual stars and badges for activities that “add direct business value,” documents state. At the meeting, Clark remarked that “some people are…

The scariest thing isn't that Amazon is a company worth nearly trillions and using that money to oppress workers to maintain their lead. It's that tech workers are happily applying to get a decent paycheck and crushing people under them, just to protect the company's billions. Then they'll post online about how happy they are to have been smart enough to save up to buy a lakefront home and retire at 45, and say peopl…

That is really dystopian stuff. Instead of electing goverment that would split monopoly, we will blame low level employees for not "resisting". Be quiet and toe the party line!!

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#276

Post by robertlagrant » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 7:07 AM UTC

grapeskin wrote: post #174

Firmwarrior wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't say that coders as an industry are destroying the road behind us, since there isn't really a road between "warehouse worker" and "software engineer", unless someone has the knack for coding (in which case there's a very clear and well-paved road within the company between those roles) I think the best solution is to empower workers via unions or whatever else. It should be impossible for workers to get gro…

Massive salaries for programmers won’t last forever. Most people here on HN are self-taught; it’s a skill a large number of motivated people can pick up. Eventually, large corporations will feel comfortable lowering wages once they have a secure grip on the market, and the tools programmers today made will be used against the next generation. It’s no different from millennials resenting boomers for burning economic b…

> Most people here on HN are self-taught; it’s a skill a large number of motivated people can pick up.

1) Self-taught isn't that relevant - where you learn something isn't the most important thing 2) There IS a large ability component to software, as well as education and motivation 3) With the exception that we're in a funny moment where web frontend is simultaneously easy and hard; the concepts are easy, but the proliferation of frameworks and ways of doing things makes skills scarce (though relatively easy to pick up). Once this is resolved, the numbers will drop, as current frameworks will replaced (or enhanced) with something more productive, but harder to use

Prognostication over!

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#277

Post by grapeskin » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 7:07 AM UTC

throw93232 wrote: post #275

grapeskin wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scariest thing isn't that Amazon is a company worth nearly trillions and using that money to oppress workers to maintain their lead. It's that tech workers are happily applying to get a decent paycheck and crushing people under them, just to protect the company's billions. Then they'll post online about how happy they are to have been smart enough to save up to buy a lakefront home and retire at 45, and say peopl…

That is really dystopian stuff. Instead of electing goverment that would split monopoly, we will blame low level employees for not "resisting". Be quiet and toe the party line!!

In a government elected by the people, the people can't absolve themselves of guilt when they're willingly voting for corrupt officials.

In governments without elected representatives, the responsibility lies entirely with the people enforcing the oppression against those weaker than them and protecting those above.

So yeah. People happily enforcing a massive wealth divide are responsible. They just don't want to accept personal responsibility because their pockets are fat. And I highly doubt they're out on the streets demanding reform to close the wealth gap and risk bringing their pay down so that those warehouse workers can live better.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#278

Post by lordnacho » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 7:14 AM UTC

josephg wrote: post #230

matthias509 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High salaries for tech workers are not a new phenomenon. So if programming were truly a skill a large number of people could just “pick up”, it would have happened already.

Yep. Programming is really hard. The idea that anyone can "learn to code" is a work of fiction. Nobody says that anyone can learn to do surgery, become a fighter pilot or become a barrister. I couldn't do those jobs. And lots of people couldn't do my job. Telling people that effort is the only thing stopping them getting a 6 figure software engineering salary does real harm. Its notable that most people who say this…

I would pick different examples. All the ones you mention require access to some special resource like an airplane or cadavers, so you basically can't learn anything until after you get past the gatekeeper.

Computers are cheap enough for far more people, and you can learn without someone's allowing you to.

Having said that you do get the sense that some people will not be able to code regardless of access. I even hear about CS graduates who basically decide having learned a bit that it's not for them. This is somewhere between "can't be done" and "don't want to".

We can flood the world with more literature graduates than will ever be needed, but it's not the same for tech skills, somehow. I'm not sure it's intelligence, that seems to just punt the issue into "what is intelligence". But it's definitely the case that you get this sense that some people reach a point where they can dive into technical issues without limit (you see their hobby projects here every few days) and those who either can't or won't.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#279

Post by krageon » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 7:17 AM UTC

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #270

grapeskin wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scariest thing isn't that Amazon is a company worth nearly trillions and using that money to oppress workers to maintain their lead. It's that tech workers are happily applying to get a decent paycheck and crushing people under them, just to protect the company's billions. Then they'll post online about how happy they are to have been smart enough to save up to buy a lakefront home and retire at 45, and say peopl…

"How we live is so different from how we ought to live that he who studies what ought to be done rather than what is done will learn the way to his downfall rather than to his preservation." Machievelli Most people are selfish and act in their own self interest despite what virtue signaling on social media they may do. You really think people are willing to risk their 6 figure salaries for some anonymous warehouse wo…

Your argument is that people are not lazy or ethically incompetent, but rather just straight up evil. Is that a fair characterisation? If so, I don't find it compelling.

Re: Amazon worker chat app to ban words such as “union”, “pay raise”, “slave labor”

#280

Post by grapeskin » Tue, Apr 05, 2022, 7:18 AM UTC

josephg wrote: post #230

matthias509 wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High salaries for tech workers are not a new phenomenon. So if programming were truly a skill a large number of people could just “pick up”, it would have happened already.

Yep. Programming is really hard. The idea that anyone can "learn to code" is a work of fiction. Nobody says that anyone can learn to do surgery, become a fighter pilot or become a barrister. I couldn't do those jobs. And lots of people couldn't do my job. Telling people that effort is the only thing stopping them getting a 6 figure software engineering salary does real harm. Its notable that most people who say this…

I know people that transferred from psychology degrees to programming jobs strictly through being self taught and they're making just shy of six figures. I know people who got web development jobs right out of high school.

Programming is infinitely easier to get into than any other high paying field. There's no standardized exam or certification board keeping people out. The problem is people need time to study it, and a lot of big companies very much have old boys networks thriving within them. Look at how many people are handed money to make a startup a year or two into Stanford, then hire a bunch of people who also went to Stanford or MIT, then put up 8 stage interviews spread across weeks for anyone who tries joining the company later.

It's honestly weird how some programmers get uncomfortable when it's stated that, yes, loads of people are self-taught. HN has nearly daily blog posts about people who studied in middle school and started a small company in high school and did fine for life, or someone who did a coding boot camp at 30 and got a fine job in a couple months after having zero experience beforehand. I mean, HN even gets literal kids (14 year olds) posting their apps--and sometimes they're actually good.

Nobody is doing that with the medical field or flying. Not everyone is going to make a world-class search engine after a few weeks in their basement. But a low double digit percentage of people could do programming in a workplace setting with good management if they had the opportunity to study. I had friends who got straight Ds in high school who are doing just fine with programming. They won't top leetcode charts, but they can make stuff.