Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#281

Post by DocTomoe » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:49 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #255

TulliusCicero wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. If you look at those particular stats, sure, it doesn't sound particularly objectionable. But if you look at others: https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/15/politics/harvard-affirmative-... > Under questioning from SFFA lawyer John Hughes, Fitzsimmons detailed some of…

> So, an individual Asian student needs to score much higher to have a chance at Harvard, compared to students of other ethnicities. That's very blatantly racial discrimination. > This amounts to, "sorry, we have enough people of your color, so we're gonna make it harder for you to get in." That's wrong. Period. "The law of unintended consequences" ... what are they going to do if the target demographic (in this case…

> what are they going to do if the target demographic (in this case Asians) start their own merit-based and academic-based colleges and universities?

I would expect setting up Asian-American universities in which non-Asians need not apply to be highly illegal due to the Civil Rights Act.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#282

Post by dandare » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:50 PM UTC

I know this is a controversial topic, but the very same is happening when IT companies deliberately hire and promote women to increase diversity. Like race, gender is an immutable characteristic and if you target it to positively discriminate one individual you negatively discriminate the other individual.

HR departments have measures and targets to report on and they will find a way to make their bosses happy.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#283

Post by yardstick » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:51 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #271

lelanthran wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, an individual Asian student needs to score much higher to have a chance at Harvard, compared to students of other ethnicities. That's very blatantly racial discrimination. > This amounts to, "sorry, we have enough people of your color, so we're gonna make it harder for you to get in." That's wrong. Period. "The law of unintended consequences" ... what are they going to do if the target demographic (in this case…

> "The law of unintended consequences" ... what are they going to do if the target demographic (in this case Asians) start their own merit-based and academic-based colleges and universities? You're asking what people would do if those who couldn't get into university address the issue by building a new university, thereby increasing supply? "Celebrate," I'd assume.

Would they though? I suspect they would want to apply non-merit/academic based policies to the new institutions too.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#284

Post by DocTomoe » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:51 PM UTC

Gareth321 wrote: post #245

root_axis wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the increased chances of admission, black students make up a modest 5% of the (e.g.) Harvard student body compared to Asian students and white students at 13% and 40% respectively. Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. From a more cynical angle the problem almost seems like "the total percen…

>Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. Really? I find it very easy. Racial discrimination is wrong. Period. You're pointing to a social discrepancy and saying "eh, maybe racial discrimination is okay because it might make the demographics more equal." I urge you to fully consider what this entails.…

> I am not of Asian descent, and I believe that a child should not be studying their childhood away.

Most likely, by raising the bar for college entry in desirable schools, you only make them study more.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#285

Post by BeFlatXIII » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:52 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #262

lordnacho wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you're joking but it would be a heck of a lot more fair. Just have some sort of objective bar like SAT score, and then do a lottery. Then you don't have the "did we do enough for XYZ group", the RNG will simplify both decision making and justification. If there's x% of XYZ passing the minimum score, that's how many will be in your class.

And when you find that x% of XYZ passing the minimum score isn’t exactly the same x% of XYZ in the population, what then?

To how many decimal points are you measuring “exactly”?

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#286

Post by cutemonster » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:53 PM UTC

actuator wrote: post #202

ipnon wrote: post #100

It's discrimination any way you slice it. You can't lower the bar for one person without raising it for another so long as the class sizes remain the same. If elite universities are about providing education (a valid point of critical contention), then systematically barring Asians from entry is the same class of injustice litigated in Brown v. Board of Education. It's not enough to say you can learn calculus just as…

This is what affirmative action will look like. If you want to see the context of such an action happening somewhere for long time, take the example of India. There it is much more explicit and written in the law. For some subjects, the criteria it takes for one cohort to get admission in the top college is the same one in which the other cohort will not even get admission in any college in the top 20. You can see th…

> to get admission in the top college

Could this indicate that there're many bright people in India, who are mostly self taught, because they belonged to the "wrong" group and so couldn't study at University (or at least not the one they wanted) ?

Whilst, if someone has studied at a top university, it doesn't mean that much?

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#287

Post by DocTomoe » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:55 PM UTC

mbg721 wrote: post #279

root_axis wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite the increased chances of admission, black students make up a modest 5% of the (e.g.) Harvard student body compared to Asian students and white students at 13% and 40% respectively. Ultimately, I can't justify the idea of rejecting students based on race, but when I look at those demographics I just don't see much to get worked up about. From a more cynical angle the problem almost seems like "the total percen…

A much cheaper state school in a cornfield can get you a quality education. Harvard and Yale are more about getting invited to the right dinner-parties.

If you wanted to rephrase that: The cornfield-state-school teaches you how to be a better serf. Ivy League teaches you how to become a master.

It's no coincidence that most founders come from ivy-league schools.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#288

Post by otoburb » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:56 PM UTC

j7ake wrote: post #257

carrionpigeon wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even then, 1 year off is a 20% income reduction on paper. 2 years would be 40%. Want to catch people voluntarily taking off work versus being 'legitimately' unemployed? (For example, is a realtor with no income during the housing crisis adequately poor?) Then, every university will have to hire people to do the analyses and make value judgements. Long term, factoring in wealth creates all sorts of perverse incentives…

Can’t this be taken into account by also considering wealth and assets, rather than by only income?

FAFSA seems to have been updated in recent years to evaluate not only income, but also wealth[1] (minus retirement accounts), including most types of US trusts[2].

[1] https://studentaid.gov/help-center/answers/article/fafsa-que...

[2] https://mcandrewslaw.com/publications-and-presentations/arti...

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#289

Post by niemandhier » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:57 PM UTC

It is easy to rage against perceived injustice, but maybe this is just a case of "All predictors become bad if they become the target"?

In the end the goal of admission processes is to select a certain type of individual. Since some degree of objectivity is needed they created a system that tried to select the desired people based on objectively measurable factors.

Maybe a subset of the american asian culture is over fitting the used predictors, so that in the end the process is not selecting the correct type of person anymore, and they just don't know how to fix it.

Re: Asian-Americans fight back against school discrimination

#290

Post by SyzygistSix » Wed, Mar 02, 2022, 12:59 PM UTC

uejfiweun wrote: post #86

tyjen wrote: post #80

I'm a confused by the equity claim to justify discriminatory behavior with what seems like heavy emphasis on race. It seems difficult to achieve equity without transparent, and standardized methods emphasizing a holistic assessment covering visible and invisible, immutable and mutable characteristics--each of which impact individual outcomes. I understand that tackling overrepresentation and underrepresentation is im…

You have to understand, this is the last dying throes of a liberal fire that has been raging for hundreds of years. Liberalism has achieved great things in the west, including expanding the rights of women, minorities, and LGBT individuals. We are all better off for its achievements. However, the low hanging fruit is taken, and now the same activists that once fought for noble goals are reduced to taking ever more di…

You make it seem like the US no longer has an issue when there's an entire class of people who are not being educated, has high crime, and ending in mass incarceration.

I can accept that some people have an issue with current liberal ideas because they think they don't work. If so, what is going to work? Or is the current state inevitable in order to have the high-functioning economy that the US has?

Certainly more Harvard grads isn't the solution. But finding a path to even good high school educations and any college has been elusive to say the least.