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Please make a dumb car

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Re: Please make a dumb car

#281

Post by tessierashpool »

stillsut wrote: post #179

I went car shopping this year in the new market and found that that if you want more a "dumb" car (UX occurs primarily outside of a touchscreen, no internet, no geolocation) you lose all potential for any nice non-smart features. So no heated/powered seats, no power windows, the material of the interior is refurbished from a spirit airlines airplane, etc. I think manufacturers are hoping that certain aspects of the m…

adding a backup cam is like $20, dude. it cost me a little more to put Bluetooth, Apple CarPlay, front and rear dashcams, and a touchscreen into my 97 Honda, but it still wasn't an unreasonable amount. my other car's a 97 BMW (with far less miles on it, well under 100K) and I'll do a slightly more deluxe version of all the same upgrades once the weather gets nice.

of course both my cars have power windows. the Honda interior is nothing to write home about but the BMW's all leather and wood. neither has heated seats, but I don't really need them where I live, and if I did, I'd just buy them on eBay.

it'll get harder in future, of course, but for now, if you want to skip all the excess computation in modern cars, all you have to do is know a little bit about cars. it's not rocket science.

what I'm really looking forward to is when electric vehicle aftermarket conversion kits become more common. you can find them for certain models already but it's very early days.

Re: Please make a dumb car

#282

Post by loudthing »

stillsut wrote: post #179

I went car shopping this year in the new market and found that that if you want more a "dumb" car (UX occurs primarily outside of a touchscreen, no internet, no geolocation) you lose all potential for any nice non-smart features. So no heated/powered seats, no power windows, the material of the interior is refurbished from a spirit airlines airplane, etc. I think manufacturers are hoping that certain aspects of the m…

In the US in May of 2018, a federal law went into effect saying all new cars require a backup camera. This means that there needs to be an LCD screen visible to the driver for the camera. This is sort of a slippery slope as far as feature creep. Now that you have this screen, aren't drivers going to expect to see something on it 99% of the time when they aren't backing up?

Actually this leads me to realize why some automakers like Ford integrate the screen into the rear view mirror, so when it isn't on, it disappears behind a one way mirror.

Re: Please make a dumb car

#283

Post by coder543 »

wazoox wrote: post #241
robin_reala wrote: post #31

The original VW Up dispensed with a screen beyond a small radio display, and just came with a mount for the smartphone you were bound to have with you. Cabin shot: https://cdn1.buyacar.co.uk/sites/buyacar/files/styles/galler...

This is what Dacia proposes in their cars. They know it's better to have a basic system with a radio, bluetooth and a place to store your phone, that will stay up-to-date and usable for years to come (check early-2000s high-end cars GPS and entertainment systems for a laugh).

Apple CarPlay and Android Auto serve the same purpose these days, since they're effectively acting as an external monitor for your phone. The OEM doesn't have to keep anything up to date.

Just providing a "dumb" head unit with as close to zero features besides CarPlay and Android Auto would be sufficient to have a good user experience at this point, at least in the context of a "dumb car".

Last time I was on Android (~5 years ago), you could actually run Android Auto as an app on your phone, so a phone mount like that would be fine (even if not amazing), but Apple doesn't let you run CarPlay directly on your phone -- it only works with an external display designed for CarPlay, so a phone mount like this is notably worse for iPhone users. CarPlay's interface is much better designed for use in a vehicle than the regular iOS interface.

Phone mounts like that have the additional problem that smartphones have continued to grow and grow, and a lot of cars from 5 or 10 years ago that offer any kind of phone charging spot or phone mount can't fit most modern smartphones in the allocated spot... so phone mounts like that can become obsolete even without any electrical components whatsoever.

Re: Please make a dumb car

#284

Post by tessierashpool »

marstall wrote: post #280
Johnny555 wrote: post #256

I don't mind having a smart car, in fact, I like most of the "smart" features - lane centering, adaptive cruise, emergency braking, TPMS, lane change cameras, auto headlights, auto wipers, etc. But I want buttons and knobs for everything I use while driving. I probably wouldn't pay extra for built-in navigation (it generally comes with other options that I do want), but I've found it useful a few times when I was out…

yes. totally agree. I LOVE adaptive cruise control, but also love/need the ability to work the music and environment selection buttons - switch stations, switch cds, change sources, turn heat up down etc - with just an instantaneous glance followed by touch only.

yeah, touch controls are wildly underrated right now. there'll be a comeback sooner or later.

Re: Please make a dumb car

#285

Post by prova_modena »

nerdponx wrote: post #204
stillsut wrote: post #179

I went car shopping this year in the new market and found that that if you want more a "dumb" car (UX occurs primarily outside of a touchscreen, no internet, no geolocation) you lose all potential for any nice non-smart features. So no heated/powered seats, no power windows, the material of the interior is refurbished from a spirit airlines airplane, etc. I think manufacturers are hoping that certain aspects of the m…

I can only imagine that there is some financial interest here. By forcing people to bundle in high-margin techno-junk, they can raise the overall profit margins cars relative to cost of living / inflation. That, and/or maybe there are high-value corporate partnerships involved.

You're right, car dealers/manufacturers do use options packages to increase profit margins by bundling less popular high margin features with more popular ones. The number of brands that let you spec out a new car using a truly a-la-carte selection of options has shrunk, and is now mostly confined to the ultra high end brands (which make huge margins on everything anyway).

However, it's not a new phenomenon, manufacturers and dealers have done this with "luxury" or "sport" features for a long time. This has usually meant adding stuff like alloy wheels, different interior trims, better speakers etc. The difference now is the huge amount of complexity that modern "smart" features bring.

Re: Please make a dumb car

#286

Post by throwaway0a5e »

awhitby wrote: post #260
Eji1700 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad i'm not the only one who thinks this is insane. I could maybe see a yolk, but dear god get me AWAY from touch screen style buttons in any serious process, let alone ones that can wind up in different orientations. And why in the hell does a yolk need to have the horn on a button rather than the center of the yolk as anyone would expect? Maybe there's some technical reason i'm unaware of, but this seems actively…

The horn thing doesn't seem like that big a deal actually. I've never used the horn in a potential accident situation because there's always something better I could be focusing on to avoid the accident. As pilot say: aviate, navigate, then communicate. [0] Some studies seems to support that [1]. The only accidents I can imagine the horn preventing are ones where you are stationary, which almost always means the othe…

They don't give you a massive "hey WTF, stop doing that!" button for you to not use it in blind religious adherence to a shallow rule of thumb or misguided attempt at politeness.

People with your attitude toward horn use likely cause substantial harm to society through fender benders, delays, frustration, etc, etc.

I think I can maybe count on one hand the number of times I've had to move out of a lane lest someone merge into me. The times that situation has been prevented through horn use are innumerable. And that's just one example.

Re: Please make a dumb car

#287

Post by seanmcdirmid »

reidjs wrote: post #257
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #246

Aren't dumb cars going to completely go away once the transition from ICE to EV is finished? I could see them being like antiques or something, but they wouldn't really be economically viable to produce anymore. And of course, the fact that dumb cars would be more expensive to produce is just a side effect of digital being cheaper than analogue after a certain about of development.

Maybe, but that will take many decades

I guess in some countries and states? Many countries have deadlines of 2025 (Norway), 2030 (Netherlands), 2035, or 2040 [1], I don't think the hold outs will be able to keep up with ICE production and infrastructure for long after the richer states and countries transition.

And once the writing is seen on the wall, no one will want to be the last person to buy an ICE. Things will change pretty rapidly.

[1] https://electrek.co/2021/11/10/countries-automakers-agree-go...

Re: Please make a dumb car

#288

Post by deltree7 »

Johnny555 wrote: post #256

I don't mind having a smart car, in fact, I like most of the "smart" features - lane centering, adaptive cruise, emergency braking, TPMS, lane change cameras, auto headlights, auto wipers, etc. But I want buttons and knobs for everything I use while driving. I probably wouldn't pay extra for built-in navigation (it generally comes with other options that I do want), but I've found it useful a few times when I was out…

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2001/03/23/strategy-letter-iv...

Re: Please make a dumb car

#289

Post by krnlpnc »

stillsut wrote: post #179

I went car shopping this year in the new market and found that that if you want more a "dumb" car (UX occurs primarily outside of a touchscreen, no internet, no geolocation) you lose all potential for any nice non-smart features. So no heated/powered seats, no power windows, the material of the interior is refurbished from a spirit airlines airplane, etc. I think manufacturers are hoping that certain aspects of the m…

There are many cases where aftermarket versions of these features will perform as good or better than the OEM version. Granted, it's extra work to research and install them, but the end result can be great.

Personally, I will research used cars with top end factory trim packages, looking for models with either a DIN sized radio slot or readily available aftermarket upgrades.

By double checking for compatibility ahead of time you can then retrofit carplay, bluetooth, etc. into a "basic" car, for example: https://gromaudio.com/vline/index.html

I also prefer to shop for used cars because I see them as more "stable" than new cars.

What I mean by that is, major flaws in the model/year have been reported and ideally fixed (but are at least known) in the years since release. Common issues/symptoms and repair details are much easier to find online via forums, etc. after a car has been around for a few years.

Re: Please make a dumb car

#290

Post by mdavidn »

protomyth wrote: post #213

I'm fine with a touch screen for things like rear camera and plugging in a smart phone, but I want actual volume, temperature, and fan speed knobs. I also want all of the information about the car I can get. For example, I don't want a "tire low light", I want an air pressure in each tire with an flashing indicator that its out of safe range. I don't want an "overheat", I want the temperature and big flashing when it…

Lexus has models with a HUD. It was far less useful than I expected. It displays just a compass, digital speedometer, and indicators for cruise control and lane assist.
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