Is 40 the New 60? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#281

Post by ChrisMarshallNY » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

honkdaddy wrote: post #255

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that. I also have gotten advice to dye my hair. I will do neither. That's dishonest. If no one values me for the skills and experience I have, then I have no interest in working with them (not "for," "with." -A big problem, in today's working world, is the attitude that companies are doing people a favor by hiring them. If someone hires me, they don't get me as a servant. I've worked way too long and har…

Do you think dying your hair is dishonest? I wear shoes with a bit of a lift because generally, at least in the west, taller men are treated a bit better in the workplace. Sure it's unfair, but it's certainly not going to change in my lifetime, so I happily play the game. I don't see dying your hair as any different from wearing makeup or attractive clothes. Humans are social and visual creatures, we find it easier t…

To me, it is dishonest; if the reason is to convince potential employers that I'm younger than I actually am. I have my own standards of Personal Integrity. I won't project these standards onto others, but I feel that I need to adhere to them.

I'm also not particularly tall (5'6" -1.9m). I wear dorky shoes (at least, according to the fashionistas on HackerNews[0]).

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28579724

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#282

Post by chrisseaton » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

no-s wrote: post #278

chrisseaton wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You won't find all of those in a 25 year old developer. What makes you think that? It's absolutely possible for a 25-year-old to be a more experienced, more technically competent, and more mature than a 40-year-old. Some 40-year-olds have 20x 1 year of experience, compared to some 25-year-old's 5 years of experience. If you think you're inherently better as a 40-year-old developer than all 25-year-old developers th…

> 20x 1 year of experience That person has 20 years of experience in gaining short experiences. Something the 25 year old prodigy can’t have. Skippercat was just stating a fact. I feel the way you expressed your opinion reflects some intrinsic ageism. Bigotry often seeks a plausible rationale for justification.

No I'm arguing against ageism. I'm over 35 myself.

I'm just realistic that having been alive a long time doesn't automatically infer wisdom like people think it does. Someone who's spent 20 years not really learning anything or bettering themselves can be behind someone who's spent five years working hard.

They said:

> at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, I understood of the whole business process and I had the maturity to deal with people in a productive way.

Understanding tech, business process, and maturity don't necessarily take a long time to learn. Someone can spend 20 years not bothering to learn these things, while someone who's worked 5 years can have mastered them.

Highly effective people can be young. Don't assume you'll have more of anything compared to them just because you've been around for longer.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#283

Post by WastingMyTime89 » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

WriterGuy2021 wrote: post #271

honkdaddy wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 54 with a PhD, is there a reason he wasn't looking for management or leadership positions instead? I know very little about pharma, but my guess would be that domain knowledge and industry connections would be super valuable.

He had a PhD in econometrics. He was a supreme nerd. He did not strike me as the management type. Some people just aren't able to climb that ladder and they fall off.

> Some people just aren't able to climb that ladder and they fall off.

That's learned helplessness. You are looking at it from a fatalist point of view. You said yourself that this person actually decided to learn python and try to find a job in software engineering so he was actually more resourceful that you give him credit for.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#284

Post by bumby » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #98

jasode wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

> Why is experience valued for outside hires of CEOs but not as much for programmers? In other words, a 55-year old programmer would have 35 more years of experience than a 20-year old but that "extra 35 years of programming" doesn't seem to be valued as much as the "extra 35 years of managing" that a 55-year CEO candidate has. Why? I'll bite – I think it is because instead of licensing and regulating our profession…

This falls inline with what I was going to respond with, but your response puts a better angle on it.

I was going to suggest that the nature of software moves much faster than many other disciplines, even other STEM ones. At least in industry*, a mechanical engineer isn't as likely to have to un-learn and re-learn like a software engineer. This tends to make those industries a bit more slow moving which, in turn, makes experience in the traditional ways of doing things a bit more valuable.

I know NCEES toyed with the idea of a software engineer professional license, but it died on the vine because so few people took it up. I suspect the outcome would have been different if industry or regulation made it a priority, like it is for civil engineers.

>My hypothesis is that they are also the ones who have kept up with changing fashions and paradigms.*

This is my thought as well, but I think a lot of bias comes because of other life events. The SWEs I knew who felt left out just didn't have enough bandwidth to spend extra hours each week learning when they had many of the other commitments that generally start creeping in in one's 30s onward.

*(In academia, there's a bit more emphasis on 'state-of-the-art', I presume).

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#285

Post by zdragnar » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

jnorthrop wrote: post #127

jasode wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At 40, I've done some of the best work I've ever done [...] Its because at 40, I had a much deeper understanding of the tech, The blog post isn't about self-reported cognitive ability getting stronger (or not declining). It's about the job marketplace . Maybe it's instructive to compare/contrast different professional careers that depend on mental abilities and how age affects marketability: - computer programming :…

I agree with your sentiment. I was 51 when I last applied for a job at a new company. Initially I was getting very little interest in my resume. Then I cut out the first 10 years of my career from my resume (and LinkedIn), and downgraded the oldest position listed from a Senior Lead to just a developer -- essentially making me appear 40 instead of 50. Within a couple of weeks I started getting responses. And it is no…

From the perspective of someone who has been on the hiring side, I see this a bit differently.

Senior developer positions are more common now, in part from title inflation but also the rise of more complex online interactions and businesses. By cutting the senior bit out of your resume, you no longer look overqualified for the more numerous junior / "regular" developer positions.

While your work from the 90's is likely very interesting, for many companies the soft skills and lessons learned will be more applicable to whatever role they have available, best included as a summary.

I promise that most hiring managers aren't going to read a 10 page resume, or even a 4 page one. 9 times out of 10, they just want to answer a simple question: should the team take time to find out more about this candidate? If the first page of your resume doesn't answer that, it likely won't make the cut.

On a final note, "30 years experience" really isn't a great sign. I have indeed worked with the type of person who has basically had the same experience over and over for 30 years, not growing, learning new technical or leadership skills, etc. That is totally fine for many positions, but it is mark against them for many others.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#286

Post by bumby » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:01 PM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #259

quadrifoliate wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is experience valued for outside hires of CEOs but not as much for programmers? In other words, a 55-year old programmer would have 35 more years of experience than a 20-year old but that "extra 35 years of programming" doesn't seem to be valued as much as the "extra 35 years of managing" that a 55-year CEO candidate has. Why? I'll bite – I think it is because instead of licensing and regulating our profession…

Indeed, one of the things you'll hear from "older" developers is "you gotta keep learning new stuff" and "learn how to learn". You might find yourself with some extended contract for maintaining a legacy codebase that is too big or important or risky to migrate... then you may be "set" for some years, but that's certainly not a majority of cases I see. And... if you're early 50s and have some in-demand niche skills t…

The problem I've witnessed is this creates a perverse incentive to keep the organization using old tech even when its against the organizations best interest. I've seen developers essentially lie to non-software-minded managers as a means of not being forced to learn a new platform.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#287

Post by lanstin » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

honkdaddy wrote: post #255

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that. I also have gotten advice to dye my hair. I will do neither. That's dishonest. If no one values me for the skills and experience I have, then I have no interest in working with them (not "for," "with." -A big problem, in today's working world, is the attitude that companies are doing people a favor by hiring them. If someone hires me, they don't get me as a servant. I've worked way too long and har…

Do you think dying your hair is dishonest? I wear shoes with a bit of a lift because generally, at least in the west, taller men are treated a bit better in the workplace. Sure it's unfair, but it's certainly not going to change in my lifetime, so I happily play the game. I don't see dying your hair as any different from wearing makeup or attractive clothes. Humans are social and visual creatures, we find it easier t…

Dieing your hair in response to ageism is like running the coal-powered AC in response to global warming. It might be necessary in limited cases but in general is feedback that makes the problem worse.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#288

Post by appleflaxen » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

WriterGuy2021 wrote: post #42

I've seen a few people fall off the career ladder to their doom in different fields. I once was a member of a local hackerspace and the place was like the Island of Misfit Toys. So many interesting and talented people biding there time there in between jobs and struggling to get back on the ladder. Lots of horror stories -- a homeless mechanical engineer, a couch surfing old programmer, etc. I think most of us are qu…

Fantastic quote

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#289

Post by lanstin » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:07 PM UTC

WriterGuy2021 wrote: post #42

I've seen a few people fall off the career ladder to their doom in different fields. I once was a member of a local hackerspace and the place was like the Island of Misfit Toys. So many interesting and talented people biding there time there in between jobs and struggling to get back on the ladder. Lots of horror stories -- a homeless mechanical engineer, a couch surfing old programmer, etc. I think most of us are qu…

I tend to dress a bit sloppily and take public transit, so I end up talking to a fair number of homeless folks. about half of them (I live in Sillicon Valley) are former software engineers (half after filtering out the schizophrenic or super drunk people). Pre-FAANG salaries but still.

Re: Is 40 the New 60?

#290

Post by codemonkeysh » Tue, Oct 05, 2021, 3:07 PM UTC

The real topic at hand isn't age, but behavior.

The complexity, in my dumb ass opinion, is that humans tend to look for patterns and correlations when trying to understand things at scale.

e.g., experienced engineers view inexperienced engineers as being in a rush and inversely, inexperienced engineers view seasoned engineers as being slow or reluctant to change.

Regardless of why the above is generally true, it's not true for everyone.

Here's some simple rules of growing old:

1. Don't forget you were once that person. Given them a chance to have the same experiences 2. Remember, most likely you'll grow old one day so grow old mindfully 3. This industry has a cycle. New people come in, make mistakes, experienced people correct it. Repeat forever. 4. As you grow older, some people take on new responsibilities like family. This has a profound impact on your work and social life. 5. Stop being a dick to people young and old, inexperienced and experienced. Try to relate to the past and present the best you can.

Lastly, every old person you see, including the greats, were once happy, highly motivated, inexperienced and passionate people ready to prove themselves! Now they're just older and still have a lot of those traits within them, but it's not often shown to the world.