Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities • Hacker News Board

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#281

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 12:53 PM UTC

mrgordon wrote: post #240

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the most popular Dutch vacations is biking around the country and camping instead of staying at hotels. It’s quite far from American car culture in that regard. American car culture is to go on vacation to drive up camping spots. You can't actually camp in many places without a car. There isn't really public transit from Seattle to Mt. Ranier national park, for example, and the distances is too far and the t…

Yes being flat does help for sure. In much of Europe I think they solve this problem with trains or sometimes buses to get to the parks or outlying areas. For example, much of Italy is hill towns and no one wants to walk up huge hills to get to each town but you can typically get there with transit. The United States admittedly is quite large and spread out but if we started to connect more things with transit then I…

We have lots of choices, but driving is the norm. There is a train near Ranier, it’s still operable (steam train!) but is now for tourism. Let’s hope it reopens.

Switzerland has trains and postal buses to serve its mountain villages and make tourism easy. The distances involved are a bit greater out west, however.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#282

Post by xorfish » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 12:54 PM UTC

kumarsw wrote: post #138

nomel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it does mean that parking will become harder In the city I'm near, using public parking lots means a 20 minute walk to your destination, with a $10 fee from all the time walking (or uber), with private parking costing around $15, and no meters in sight. This creates an isolated area that people never go to for a bite to eat, coffee, window shopping, or anything really, since it's a > $10 fee just to step o…

The solution to this is plentiful, well-placed municipal parking garages priced cheaper than street parking. Santa Monica does this where they have about 6-7 city-run garages spaced throughout the city with easily visible electronic signage indicating the amount of available spaces. Street parking is much more spare and priced higher. It's an enlightened alternative to tearing down buildings for more single-level lot…

Removing parking space and giving it to less wasteful modes of transport is one of the more efficient ways to improve an area.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#283

Post by omaranto » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 12:55 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #274

wanderingmind wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to write almost very similar comment. A follow up question will be how badly they want it and are they willing to give up their cars to have a walkable City and you would immediately see how many are actually interested in it

The problem is that American cities also generally don't have functioning mass transit systems. And even in those that do (New York), they don't always go where you need them to go, so mass transit trips can be 2-3x longer than a car trip. Want to do a big shopping trip? Have more than 1 child you need to move around the city? Want to do more than 1 specific errand in the same afternoon? Without a car, all of this be…

I lived in the Boston area for five years and it was a great experience overall, it's quite walkable. The one thing I could never quite get used to was public transit taking longer than walking! You often had a choice of walking for 20 minutes or waiting 15 minutes for a 6 minute bus ride. (Tip: in winter, walking isn't just faster, it feels much warmer too.)

This really confused my Mexico City brain. Here in Mexico City public transit is horribly crowded but faster than walking. The subway is usually faster even than driving, which makes sense because you're not in our terrible traffic.

I guess part of the problem in Boston is that there just aren't enough riders: after waiting 10 minutes for a bus it wasn't even full! Here in Mexico City a more typical waiting period is 5 minutes and the bus is usually packed. I bet in Boston it's just not economically viable to run transit more frequently. Although maybe more people would opt for public transit if it were more frequent?

Anyway, I do recommend living Boston for a few years even with its wonky public transit. It's very pretty and has plenty of character.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#284

Post by maccard » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 12:55 PM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #280

nerdponx wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that American cities also generally don't have functioning mass transit systems. And even in those that do (New York), they don't always go where you need them to go, so mass transit trips can be 2-3x longer than a car trip. Want to do a big shopping trip? Have more than 1 child you need to move around the city? Want to do more than 1 specific errand in the same afternoon? Without a car, all of this be…

> And now let's say you want to get out of the city for the weekend. Do you rent a car? That's way more expensive in the long run compared to owning. Are you doing it every weekend? Renting a car for just the odd weekend away would be way cheaper than owning. The initial cost / capital depreciation aside even. I live in London and don't have a car, a £50+ train out to my parents' seems a bit absurd next to the cost o…

Cars are unfortunately too cheap. My last car was a basic VW polo, and the insurance was £350/year, road tax £99 and probably £200 a year amortized over the 5 years on servicing/wear and year, with a 400 mile range on ~£50 worth of fuel. The break even point on that is ~5-6 trips per year, and much lower if you use the car for basically anything else. I can fly to eastern Europe for £15, but the transit to the airport is more expensive than that in my city.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#285

Post by lumost » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 12:56 PM UTC

wanderingmind wrote: post #263

habosa wrote: post #261

Sometimes I think Americans don’t know how badly they want this. Americans will tell you how wonderful European cities are with their small streets and their public squares filled with great restaurants. They think we don’t have cities like that because we’re lacking some fundamental European-ness. No. We just put cars everywhere. Cars ruin everything. Now you have wider streets. Louder streets. More dangerous street…

I was going to write almost very similar comment. A follow up question will be how badly they want it and are they willing to give up their cars to have a walkable City and you would immediately see how many are actually interested in it

Zoning is a dragon that even a clear majority can’t slay in many cities. In Boston there is a major controversy that all new construction must have 1 parking space for every 2 condos.

Property developers, residents, and everyone else hates this regulation as the people buying these condos aren’t getting cars. You end up with buildings that are 1/3rd empty parking lot.

Bear in mind that the most popular neighborhoods of Boston were built in the 1600s without cars in mind.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#286

Post by xorfish » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 1:00 PM UTC

jackson1442 wrote: post #5

I like my car and I like driving. That said, I don't like driving _everywhere_. When I moved to university, it was incredibly freeing to just be able to walk somewhere I wanted to go rather than getting in my car and driving miles to get anywhere. I grew up in a suburb in Texas so walking anywhere except _maybe_ a friend's house was entirely out of the question. I visited Portland recently and it was lovely to be abl…

Just imagine how much freedom people that can't drive a car (disabilities, too young, too old) get in a walkable city.

Can you imagine to live in a city where you can give a 10 year old money to get some ice at a stand that is 2 km away?

That happens if you do city planning right.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#287

Post by Retric » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 1:01 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #261

Sometimes I think Americans don’t know how badly they want this. Americans will tell you how wonderful European cities are with their small streets and their public squares filled with great restaurants. They think we don’t have cities like that because we’re lacking some fundamental European-ness. No. We just put cars everywhere. Cars ruin everything. Now you have wider streets. Louder streets. More dangerous street…

I’ve lived in walkable US cities. The main ingredients are mixed use, high density, effective public transportation, useable sidewalks, and zero surface level parking lots. Roads and underground parking is fine because they don’t lower density that much and density defines how much you can reach in a reasonable walk.

What I think people miss is public transportation is the least important part of the equation. Once people start walking everywhere you can increase the number of trips people take with public transportation, but you want people making short trips not simply long commutes.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#288

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 1:07 PM UTC

habosa wrote: post #261

Sometimes I think Americans don’t know how badly they want this. Americans will tell you how wonderful European cities are with their small streets and their public squares filled with great restaurants. They think we don’t have cities like that because we’re lacking some fundamental European-ness. No. We just put cars everywhere. Cars ruin everything. Now you have wider streets. Louder streets. More dangerous street…

[deleted]

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#289

Post by presentation » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 1:08 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #287

habosa wrote: post #261

Sometimes I think Americans don’t know how badly they want this. Americans will tell you how wonderful European cities are with their small streets and their public squares filled with great restaurants. They think we don’t have cities like that because we’re lacking some fundamental European-ness. No. We just put cars everywhere. Cars ruin everything. Now you have wider streets. Louder streets. More dangerous street…

I’ve lived in walkable US cities. The main ingredients are mixed use, high density, effective public transportation, useable sidewalks, and zero surface level parking lots. Roads and underground parking is fine because they don’t lower density that much and density defines how much you can reach in a reasonable walk. What I think people miss is public transportation is the least important part of the equation. Once p…

Roads often do make a big difference - if there are too many lanes it you end up with a block-sized, loud and dangerous chasm in the middle of what could be a bustling neighborhood.

I live in Tokyo and it’s dominated by streets that are literally barely wide enough to have two cars pass each other at <5mph, and I’ve come to love that.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#290

Post by xorfish » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

542458 wrote: post #98

graeme wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your thesis is flawed. It is illegal to build new dense walkable neighborhoods in almost all of north america. But existing neighbourhoods of that style tend to be both highly priced to live in and also popular tourist destinations, implying high desirability. The older east coat cities built walkable neighbourhoods before they became illegal.

They’re illegal because people vote for representatives who makes them illegal and show up to city council meetings to petition for them to be illegal. Existing areas in that style tend to be expensive, but are often (at least where I’ve lived) some of the most NYMBY areas in a city. They like the benefits their density has brought, but won’t tolerate the lot next to them getting one iota more dense.

It will become a necessity in a few decades.

Single family homes that are up to code don't bring in enough tax revenue to pay for the infrastructure that is necessary to suport them.

Same thing goes for strip mals.

You can try to run a deficit forever, it is just a really bad idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ...