Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities • Hacker News Board

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#171

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

kumarsw wrote: post #138

nomel wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, it does mean that parking will become harder In the city I'm near, using public parking lots means a 20 minute walk to your destination, with a $10 fee from all the time walking (or uber), with private parking costing around $15, and no meters in sight. This creates an isolated area that people never go to for a bite to eat, coffee, window shopping, or anything really, since it's a > $10 fee just to step o…

The solution to this is plentiful, well-placed municipal parking garages priced cheaper than street parking. Santa Monica does this where they have about 6-7 city-run garages spaced throughout the city with easily visible electronic signage indicating the amount of available spaces. Street parking is much more spare and priced higher. It's an enlightened alternative to tearing down buildings for more single-level lot…

> Spokane, WA for how not to handle city parking - about half of downtown is gray asphalt.

Downtown Spokane isn't that bad, although it used to be much better. They have parking garages downtown, but those were built during better times (when Spokane also had multi-level car dealerships across the street from the mall), it turns out downtown real estate just isn't that expensive anymore. There is a lot of gray asphalt simply because there isn't much demand for the asphalt to be anything else.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#172

Post by ramblenode » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:53 AM UTC

cletus wrote: post #17

No, they don’t. This is a classic example of listening to what people say vs observing what they do. And it’s a good lesson in product development. Ask your users “do you want X?” And the answer is inevitably “yes”. Ask them “do you want A or B?” And you’ll start to get a better approximation of user behavior. Better yet is observing actual behavior. In this case Americans have chosen the suburbs in droves. Americans…

> In this case Americans have chosen the suburbs in droves.

They've chosen their preferred option, given the current (meager) options. That doesn't mean people wouldn't choose walkable cities over suburbs---the option of walkable cities just functionally doesn't exist in the US for a middle income family.

And this isn't due to organic demand for suburban neighborhoods, either. In the US, central planning has had a major role in accelerating the development of suburbs. Tax incentives for home ownership were first rolled out during the New Deal, and these especially targeted single family homes. After the war, the dual-use civil-military interstate system was created and highways were subsidized which allowed neighborhood development far from the city center. Auto and petrochemical development were targeted for national security, which acted as a subsidy toward the gasoline-heavy suburban lifestyle. The 1970s energy crisis shifted US foreign policy toward stabilizing petrol prices, which has resulted in various military and CIA operations to that effect (Paul Wolfowitz was talking about securing oil in Iraq before 2nd Bush was even in office). Suburban homes in many cities consume more resources via public roads, water, sewer, electric than they pay in property taxes, but taxes are kept low for political reasons, because that's where voters live.

So there are quite a lot of extra-market forces that have shaped city planning. Now all of this has reached a scale where it is self-sustaining, but that doesn't mean people would have picked this route if the initial conditions were not so favorable.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#173

Post by reducesuffering » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:54 AM UTC

gullywhumper wrote: post #135

To make cities more walkable, changing driver behavior needs to be a significant focus. Minneapolis consistently ranks as one of the better cities for pedestrians, but even here the drivers here are really aggressive towards pedestrians to the point that some don't even care if you're pushing a stroller. Bike lanes, trails, and enhanced crosswalks are great, but they can't protect you from drivers that ignore traffic…

Easier said than done. My Bay Area City is implementing city planning measures to reduce traffic fatalities; things like bike lane protectors and removing right-turn yield passages into a sharp right turn that forces drivers to be slower. You would not believe the amount of sheer vitriol from many folks....

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#174

Post by yarky » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:55 AM UTC

throwawayboise wrote: post #162

jackson1442 wrote: post #5

I like my car and I like driving. That said, I don't like driving _everywhere_. When I moved to university, it was incredibly freeing to just be able to walk somewhere I wanted to go rather than getting in my car and driving miles to get anywhere. I grew up in a suburb in Texas so walking anywhere except _maybe_ a friend's house was entirely out of the question. I visited Portland recently and it was lovely to be abl…

I like living out in the country on a large private wooded lot. I have lived in dense cities where I could get groceries and other necessities within a short walk, and with pervasive public transportation. Hated it. I like space and seclusion. I like being able to drive anywhere to get what I need, when I need it, and not having to wait for a bus or a train.

It looks like you need a car indeed. I grew up the way you live and just loved it when I first lived in a city where I didn't need a car. If you needed a bus/train to do your groceries I understand that you hated it, that's why I'd rather choose to stay at a walkable distance of everything.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#175

Post by toomuchtodo » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 2:55 AM UTC

mateo411 wrote: post #74

jackson1442 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need more apartments for purchase rather than renting in America. That's practically unheard of in Texas- just about anything in a shared building is only for rent.

This exists. It's usually called a condo or a townhome. I'm sure they exist in Texas too. You'll find them in more urban areas. They aren't as popular during a pandemic, but they usually cost less than a house, and if the organization is functioning well enough, then you also have the outside maintenance covered.

A nice condo in Dallas currently goes for $400k with a $700/month HOA assessment.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#176

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:02 AM UTC

mrgordon wrote: post #143

8note wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like the Netherlands has it figure out? Split out streets and roads. Roads are for driving fast, and streets are for destinations, slow driving, and walking.

Most Americans would say the Netherlands is tough for driving I think because the cars are smaller, the lanes are smaller, there is light rail everywhere, many pedestrians and bikers everywhere, etc. I think all these decisions are why the Netherlands are so lovely and most of America is seemingly highways, strip malls, and suburbs. One of the most popular Dutch vacations is biking around the country and camping inst…

> One of the most popular Dutch vacations is biking around the country and camping instead of staying at hotels. It’s quite far from American car culture in that regard.

American car culture is to go on vacation to drive up camping spots. You can't actually camp in many places without a car. There isn't really public transit from Seattle to Mt. Ranier national park, for example, and the distances is too far and the terrain too hilly for just biking it (the Netherlands is lucky to be flat, in this regard).

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#177

Post by robbedpeter » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #166

standardUser wrote: post #4

Add up the roads, parking spaces, parking garages, gas stations (not to mention auto shops, drive thrus and car washes) and the total urban footprint is a gargantuan 50-60% by many calculations. That's not automatically a bad thing, especially if you are a car, but all of that space creates massive buffers separating all of the other stuff that humans want to walk to. To make it worse, those buffers are far and away…

i was just reading an article in my local paper this morning about a new building in town that got a zoning variance approved. it's a ten-unit visitor accomodation development, and they have ten parking stalls on the property (which is less than the minimum parking spaces code requires). there was apparently a 45-minute debate at the council meeting where neighbours were arguing that the development should be denied…

During holidays, visitors can mean many more than two additional cars per family. Living in that building means choosing not to entertain friends and family, or irritating the crap out of your neighbors by taking up the parking. If they're lucky, they'll be communicative and work out parking custody, but more than likely it'll be a resentful petty mess.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#178

Post by gleenn » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:07 AM UTC

notJim wrote: post #31

standardUser wrote: post #4

Add up the roads, parking spaces, parking garages, gas stations (not to mention auto shops, drive thrus and car washes) and the total urban footprint is a gargantuan 50-60% by many calculations. That's not automatically a bad thing, especially if you are a car, but all of that space creates massive buffers separating all of the other stuff that humans want to walk to. To make it worse, those buffers are far and away…

Something I only recently learned is that zoning rules generally require housing developments to include a certain amount of parking. This drives up the cost of housing, because of the space required (either up or out.) Many cities are reducing or eliminating these requirements in an effort to make housing more affordable. However, it does mean that parking will become harder, as there will be more competition for st…

That's great, hopefully it will make cities more walkable as a result.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#179

Post by erosenbe0 » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:10 AM UTC

nomel wrote: post #103

notJim wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I only recently learned is that zoning rules generally require housing developments to include a certain amount of parking. This drives up the cost of housing, because of the space required (either up or out.) Many cities are reducing or eliminating these requirements in an effort to make housing more affordable. However, it does mean that parking will become harder, as there will be more competition for st…

> However, it does mean that parking will become harder In the city I'm near, using public parking lots means a 20 minute walk to your destination, with a $10 fee from all the time walking (or uber), with private parking costing around $15, and no meters in sight. This creates an isolated area that people never go to for a bite to eat, coffee, window shopping, or anything really, since it's a > $10 fee just to step o…

I grew up on the outskirts of Chicago. Mostly built in the 1920s or 1950s. Everything you need is within a one mile walk, even Home Depot. Cinema closed down but Walmart opened up about two miles away. Plenty of street parking, alley garages, and lots of nice amenities. Only moderate rat load.

I think this is the type of neighborhood people like, when the schools are good, at least.

Lots of neighborhoods used to be like this, though usually not big box stuff. Used to be bodegas, fruit markets, small hardware shops, tailor, dry cleaners, etc.

Until the mid 80s to early 90s there were neighborhood Sears and Wiebolts as well. Wiebolts went under in 1986.

Elderly folks could give up their car and age in place as long as they could get up the porch ramps and such. Didn't need to go to home, and homes need not be far from neighborhoods. Plenty of housing options for all stripes.

Re: Surveys show Americans want more walkable cities

#180

Post by titzer » Sat, Aug 07, 2021, 3:10 AM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #4

Add up the roads, parking spaces, parking garages, gas stations (not to mention auto shops, drive thrus and car washes) and the total urban footprint is a gargantuan 50-60% by many calculations. That's not automatically a bad thing, especially if you are a car, but all of that space creates massive buffers separating all of the other stuff that humans want to walk to. To make it worse, those buffers are far and away…

When I moved to LA, I did the following calculation.

Average number of cars per person, 2/3 x Number of people in greater LA area, 16M = 10M. 10M cars x average parking spot is 7ft x 15, 105 sq ft = 1 billion sq ft. 1 billion sq ft to square miles = 36 square miles. That's a square 6 miles on a side. Just to park the cars once. There is at least 3x that number of spots in the city. A hundred square miles of parking. No kidding. Also, the city of LA maintains 5000+ miles of street parking.

The scale is mind boggling.

And the cost is astronomical. The cost of real estate is estimated at $2.7 million per acre. Those hundred square miles are worth close to $200 billion.