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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

lore.kernel.org

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a pre print from today. Credible authors so I do expect it to go the distance: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.28.21258012v... This expose on the suppression of ivermectin is telling: https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/T... Lots of studies referenced in it.

Thank you for sharing the link. I do note that this is an observational study of 255 people. It contradicts a randomized trial with 1,561 people in the HCQ-arm alone vs 3,155 receiving usual care (RECOVERY).

When they are studied as a prophylactic or at early stage, they really prove out. I think that trial you referenced was in late stage severe cases, almost feels like they gamed that design to fail.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#282
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a LOT of anti-vaxxers who disingenuously couch their advocacy as "I'm only asking questions". It's no surprise when you've seen a 10:1 ratio of bad actors to good (or worse), one might get a little exasperated. In any case, I've recently been reading Lauren Sompayrac's "How the Immune System Works", and it's a technical overview of the immune system. It's not going to make you into a full blown immunologist…

> There are a LOT of anti-vaxxers who disingenuously couch their advocacy as "I'm only asking questions". And they quickly reveal their bad faith, at which point they can safely be ignored. Or, if you don't feel like discussing it, it's easy enough to say "I don't know about that, but the anti-vaccine stuff sounds like lies to scare people so I decided to trust my doctor." If honest questions are met with hostility,…

I agree, and that's why I try to answer questions with friendly answers. It wasn't so much that I was advocating for dismissing the question, I was just trying to explain why experts have gotten really, really tired, and might do so.

(Also: My local county facebook group has no shortage of very vindictive, angry, and seeming inexhaustible anti-vaxxers.)

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If that's the case, could the proteins coded by the mRNA potentially have kicked off such a response? Why would they? And more specifically, why would they cause lung issues? Because that's the main problem with COVID. The virus like to bind to cells that have a specific receptors, with the vast majority contained in lung tissue. You would expect to see major damage near the injection site if your cytokine storm th…

> If there is a mechanism that will cause side effects on mRNA vaccines, then such mechanism will also be presented in the virus. You're forgetting about the lipids the vaccine mRNA is put into. One big reason it took so long to create mRNA vaccines was finding a suitable lipid mix. They need to have a specific property, they need to be electrically charged in a certain way, and pretty much all lipids with that prope…

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#284
post #122

I am eagerly awaiting my vaccine, however we are all alpha/beta testers. A real concern is about safety of those vaccines as typically they require ~3 years of testing and a single fatality aborts their use. Would you give alpha version to people you love? Why is this concern downplayed? I understand statistics but we have no clue what could go wrong in an early version of a new technology and no data on long-term im…

> A real concern is about safety of those vaccines as typically they require ~3 years of testing and a single fatality aborts their use.

Drug development is usually serialized because it's so expensive. Why produce a bunch of drugs if it's going to be thrown away? Operation warp speed said let's just throw money at the problem so we can parallelize as much as possible, knowing that if it doesn't work out (effective, safety) then we as a country just ate the cost of trying. My understanding is the clinical trial parts weren't any different than would normally be done.

AFAIK vaccine safety is usually determinable within a few months. That is to say, if anything bad happens, it'll happen soon and not years later. Because enough months had past with larger and larger groups looking ok, plus extreme effectiveness, then emergency authorization was passed.

You could say emergency authorization is alpha/beta. But that alpha/beta has now been rolled out to hundreds of million of people and the safety profiles haven't changed from the clinical trial modeling. And if the failure probability is all up front, and we've already passed those milestones, then are we really still in alpha/beta territory?

mRNA vaccines are also not a new technology. They've been used for years now.

> Would you give alpha version to people you love?

If the option is an alpha which is passing all the 'unit tests' so to speak, or let them get covid and have far higher risk of dying or permanent disability, I'd for sure choose the alpha.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#285

> And if you insist on believing in the crazy conspiracy theories, at least SHUT THE HELL UP about it on Linux kernel discussion lists. I see Linus still hasn't changed much.

It's kind of "his house". He isn't going to let someone use his platform to spew something he considers to be not only clearly wrong, but dangerously harmful. If I owned a newsgroup, I might well feel the same.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#286

Just to clear one thing: Vaccines actually do edit the genetic code, but only of some select B-cells. And so does any other antigen that your body develops antibodies for. The process is very complicated and beautiful, and is pretty much exactly the same as in plenty of other multicellular life forms. If you've ever wondered what's the "storage format" for all the recipes for all the different antibodies that your bo…

I think this is not a good way of representing things. When you say "vaccines edit the genetic code", most listeners would understand it that the vaccines actively and directly change your genes. This is of course what is not happenig. And as many people claim that mRNA vaccines perform genetic manipulation, I would even claim it is dangerous to say.

I think, the correct way to phrase it is: an immune reaction, be it against a vaccine or an infection is expressed in genetic changes of some cells. But this is how the immune system works, nothing specific to vaccines. Vaccines are just a safe and efficient way to trigger the immune response.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#287

I'm glad Linus stepped in on this one. Unrelated question here - how are people actually consuming mailing lists like this? I always find these links difficult to read and have always assumed there much be some superior format, alternative typefaces for one.

news.gmame.io isn't a terrible option, if you can find a newsreader.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#288
post #122

I am eagerly awaiting my vaccine, however we are all alpha/beta testers. A real concern is about safety of those vaccines as typically they require ~3 years of testing and a single fatality aborts their use. Would you give alpha version to people you love? Why is this concern downplayed? I understand statistics but we have no clue what could go wrong in an early version of a new technology and no data on long-term im…

Exactly. The vaccines did not go through the FDA’s typical approval process, they got emergency approval, but the standard approval process is still ongoing. mRNA vaccines have never been used in a large scale setting outside of clinical trials before. Are they safe? Almost certainly. Do we know that for sure yet? No. Do the benefits outweigh the risks? For me, yes.

But that's not true. They've been used for years with cancer at minimum.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#289

I was surprised to discover one genuine anti-vax fact: if you're diabetic and you're taking a certain drug, you must be very careful before taking the COVID vaccine: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26953326 That's not really anti-vax, but an acquaintance died a couple weeks after getting vaccinated due to diabetes complications, and I've always wondered if this was the cause. I don't think I should post this wit…

It doesn't say that, it says you should stop taking those drugs if you contract Covid, not if you are vaccinated - these are different things

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#290
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative here is ignoring the software engineer, and instead asking the crazy person on the corner who’s shouting at the sky and wearing his underwear on his head. Getting the perspective of the software engineer is a reasonable step, and certainly better than basing your beliefs on the rankings of the insane person.

No, I think the alternative here is asking vaccinologists.

The alternative I was referring to is wherever Enrico Weigelt got his information, which certainly was not a vaccinologist.

Of course, if you have access to a vaccinologist (is this a recognized profession? I checked two dictionaries and neither contain the word), you should ask them. Or you can look up their opinion online [1]. Most will agree what the doctors and nurse said.

[1] https://health.mountsinai.org/blog/esteemed-vaccinologist-we...

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