Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation
281–289 of 289 posts
Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's not a good deal of solid literature on it in English that I've found, but contemplative Christian prayer evolved later on. I want to say circa 500 or so. I think today it's primarily found in the Eastern Orthodox churches.
here is a random paper from 1994, back when peer review was still a thing: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3270411?seq=1 it connects silent prayer to Philo, a contemporary of Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo and it connects silent prayer to early desert fathers, like Clement of Alexandria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria
Unfortunately I don't have access to that paper, and the timeline isn't in the abstract. The abstract mentions it took a long time to be accepted.
Also. For clarity (you may know this, but others may not) I want to distinguish very clearly the difference between a silent prayer and meditation.
A silent prayer is verbalized intention within your head, sometimes mouthed. If you were to look up Judaism's silent prayer, it is repeating a ritual sequence of words - the meanings of which you should know. As traditionally conceived, it is addressing the Eternal as a Person.
The different meditation approaches I've encountered - conventional "Western mindfulness" and a more intense secular Hindu system - are focused on detaching awareness. Sometimes mantras are used/repeated. It is exceptionally variant from the early silent prayer approach, or even the nominal silent prayer approach of today.
Contemplative prayer did start with the desert fathers, I think.
Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation
#283Earlier quoted context omitted.
I just have to say what a well thought out response. There is so much caution given in the literature around the need for a teacher or guide who can help the student through these issues when they arise. I remember reading about it in the Munger school texts on Prana and pranic healing.
The problem, as laid out in the article and Willoughby Britton’s work, is that these teachers or guides aren’t trained in psychiatry. Telling somebody who is experiencing psychological distress to meditate through it seems like it can cause harm.
Well I think that’s a bit of a straw man. Who’s to say that these teachers do not have training in traditions that have essentially evolved their own treatment modality for psychiatric ailments. Just because they don’t have formal training doesn’t mean the cultural traditions don’t have effective treatment for meditation-induced psychosis. Sure maybe Goenka and his school may be an isolated case where such training wasn’t provided (hence the need for an advanced master) that’s not to say there aren’t examples of masters (several of whom I’ve witnessed personally) that are able to handle the psychotic imbalance that arises from pursuit of these advanced practices.
Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m well aware of this, and have been meditating for much longer than 7 years. I’ve also spent time with numerous different meditation groups from different traditions. My experience is that they vary a lot. > You face only what you're ready for. We have safeguards against it. Your particular community may have safeguards. That is simply not true in the general case as the linked article asserts.
Safeguards may not be needed if meditation is pursued in moderation and with a modicum of self-awareness. When it becomes a competition or a drug or a lifestyle or an experimental therapy or hobby or social or cult activity, there are greater dangers. People should be meaningfully informed of the risks. But there is money to be made, so... Philosophical studies and religious faith and teachings seem to smooth the way…
> Safeguards may not be needed if meditation is pursued in moderation and with a modicum of self-awareness.
That seems like a tautology to me.
You are essentially saying that those who practice safely do not need safeguards.
This is true, but of course the safeguards are not for those people.
They are for people who are at risk but don’t know it.
Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation
#285I didn't read the article completely but from my experience the overselling that's typical in the West is a problem here. Meditation (and now psychedelics) are sold as this wonderful cure to all problems. In yoga and meditation classes a lot of people seemed to feel obliged to feel great and spiritual even though they didn't really feel that way. Same probably in 10 day meditation classes. They get thrown into someth…
Psychedelics are a good analogy. I don't think they are worth much in our culture and carry serious risk for people who are unstable. Even if you find an authentic shaman, you aren't going to have the cultural context to make it worthwhile by flying there over a weekend. There is also probably not much more dangerous than a very poorly functioning spiritual practice / teacher. The story here about Vipassana is unsurp…
“really need to find a good teacher who you trust.”
That’s the problem. It’s easy to trust an incompetent teacher. How do you find completed teacher in a field with many very charismatic charlatans?
Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
Psychedelics are a good analogy. I don't think they are worth much in our culture and carry serious risk for people who are unstable. Even if you find an authentic shaman, you aren't going to have the cultural context to make it worthwhile by flying there over a weekend. There is also probably not much more dangerous than a very poorly functioning spiritual practice / teacher. The story here about Vipassana is unsurp…
“really need to find a good teacher who you trust.” That’s the problem. It’s easy to trust an incompetent teacher. How do you find completed teacher in a field with many very charismatic charlatans?
That's the fun part :)
The most accomplished people who I know in this stuff have spent decades moving from teacher to teacher.
Eventually you can tell who is full of shit and who isn't. There are certain red flags that you can learn to spot pretty quickly. If you spot a red flag it also doesn't necessarily mean the person doesn't know something worth learning, it just means they are stuck somewhere else. There are a lot of pretty high level people who are a little bit egotistical for example but it doesn't mean they don't know some useful techniques.
The guy teaching me has trained under like a dozen very well known people over the years and his current teacher spent several decades in Asia working his way up through a series of teachers. The latter person I'm describing has talked about being very skeptical of his teachers to the point where in one instance he went into a teachers fridge to confirm he was lying about what he did or didn't eat.
Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation
#287Long term meditation "enthusiast" who has been around many meditation traditions and also done retreats from 3 days to 3 weeks. Meditation is definitely not relaxation. In the language of Yoga (which meditative traditions share), long meditation sessions move the focus (prana) to certains parts of the body where long sustained focus can create "imbalances" and lead to breaks and other side effects (psychosis or relat…
Not a buddhist, but 100% agree that this article is very lacking in depth in covering the hard fact that 'meditation' is not some singular practice - philosophical/spiritual/psychological context of the practitioner and intent will absolutely have a massive impact on how meditation 'experiences' will be internalized - is the 'insight' I had actually spiritually beneficial, or simply my own attachments/preconceived no…
> Christian monastics have written tomes about the dangers of spiritual delusion arising in the course of practice (prelest);
I wasn't aware of this. Could you point us to some of these writings? Curious to read more about it.
Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not a buddhist, but 100% agree that this article is very lacking in depth in covering the hard fact that 'meditation' is not some singular practice - philosophical/spiritual/psychological context of the practitioner and intent will absolutely have a massive impact on how meditation 'experiences' will be internalized - is the 'insight' I had actually spiritually beneficial, or simply my own attachments/preconceived no…
> Christian monastics have written tomes about the dangers of spiritual delusion arising in the course of practice (prelest); I wasn't aware of this. Could you point us to some of these writings? Curious to read more about it.
Sure - Don't have a good example of a work specifically focused on this - some excellent texts with significant portions dealing with this topic interspersed:
(very dense theologically, and intended for actual practicing monks, fitting the topic, beware )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ladder_of_Divine_Ascent
"18–26: Avoidance of the traps of asceticism (laziness, pride, mental stagnation"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophthegmata_Patrum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philokalia
"On the Signs of Grace and Delusion, Written for the Confessor Longinos: Ten Texts"
less familiar with western christian works, though i'm sure there are some.
Re: Lost in Thought: Psychological Risks of Meditation
#289Meditation is a pretty broad term encompassing many different activities/intentions (though they all look pretty similar from the outside). In the studies I’ve read on the adverse effects of meditation, the style has a major influence. Due to historical accidents, vipassana is a common style in the West - I find this mind blowing, since it is probably the most likely to cause adverse effects. As a long time meditator…
When I started meditating I also was introduced via Theravada based vipassana and eventually felt the need to give it up after having some strange things come up and also falling into the nihilism trap I think is common to hit. Thankfully years later I encountered Mahayana teachings and it clarified a ton for me, letting me restart my practice. That’s all to say I think it’s important that people take it slow and get…
having the laity meditate at all is, AFAIK, a pretty modern development