Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google • Hacker News Board

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#281

Post by thu2111 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 12:59 PM UTC

berdario wrote: post #277

thu2111 wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? That quote comes from the person who was fired. She explained what she did because she's proud of it: she injected some code into a web page about unions and organising telling Googlers they had a right to organise. The Google security team is frankly deeply worrying at this point, and I say that as someone who used to work there on security related topics (but consumer account security, not internal). A small n…

> "All I did was make a popup to share the labor notice Google has to share with its workers" Does not mean rewriting the content of webpages, or having "root at google.com". It's better if you'd stop such speculation. The reality is much more pedestrian than what you describe: the person that was retaliated against only wrote simple, inert, strings of plain text. That text was not injected anywhere, and there was no…

It went through the usual security controls yet she was immediately fired for doing it? Really? Do you understand how that sounds?

Please do explain how someone makes a message appear in your browser when you visit a particular website, without having access to a highly privileged browser extension? That can at minimum monitor the URLs you're visiting?

I honestly really hope you aren't on the Google security team, because you seem to be missing the issue here. Someone who had a high level of access was fired for violating basic trust, apparently with the collaboration of her coworkers. What other things could this person have done to advance her political goals by subverting her access for things it wasn't meant for? Outsiders can't know. All they can see is that the company doesn't have a grip on its own workforce. That is not confidence inspiring.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#282

Post by eyevpoison » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 1:06 PM UTC

I saw her ted talk to understand more about her viewpoint. Looks like she is only interested in increasing the demands for black people and that too women. Because she says, "products should be tested on all types of customers". The natural follow up to this is how do we define types? Race is only the first level, very soon within race also, we will see people forming groups.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#283

Post by tomcam » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 1:08 PM UTC

nbzso wrote: post #163

me_me_me wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been long time HN lurker and I too miss the older times, but have hard time finding better alternative.

There is no alternative, and probably will not be another. HN is a result of optimistic hacker culture with big dreams for success and tons of useful info and people. Ideological and practical Impact of HN on my career (18 years +) is enormous, it is on pair with early Google, INFOQ, Nielsen Norman Group. We live in different times now, innovation is hard, most of the valuable users don't have free time to post and I…

Analysis: true

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#284

Post by berdario » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 1:38 PM UTC

thu2111 wrote: post #281

berdario wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "All I did was make a popup to share the labor notice Google has to share with its workers" Does not mean rewriting the content of webpages, or having "root at google.com". It's better if you'd stop such speculation. The reality is much more pedestrian than what you describe: the person that was retaliated against only wrote simple, inert, strings of plain text. That text was not injected anywhere, and there was no…

It went through the usual security controls yet she was immediately fired for doing it? Really? Do you understand how that sounds? Please do explain how someone makes a message appear in your browser when you visit a particular website, without having access to a highly privileged browser extension? That can at minimum monitor the URLs you're visiting? I honestly really hope you aren't on the Google security team, be…

> it went through the usual security controls yet she was immediately fired for doing it? Really? Do you understand how that sounds?

Yes, that's crazy... And that's exactly why people have been angry at the retaliation

> Please do explain...

To get more details, the appropriate thing to do is to draft a post that explains how these things are accomplished at Google and get it approved for publication by the legal review team. I've never done it and, while I don't exclude that I might do it, it probably won't happen soon.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#285

Post by cmiles74 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:23 PM UTC

timnit-drama wrote: post #15

The email she posted [1] makes it pretty clear that she sent an email with some demands/conditions (separate from the one "to Brain women and allies") and said that she would resign if they weren't met. Google said they wouldn't agree to them, accepted her threatened resignation, and told her it was effective immediately. Without knowing more context, it sounds like she tried to do some hardball negotiating by threat…

I have to say, this idea that we should assume the best of the large corporate entity to the detriment of the very real human person until "we know more context" strikes me as shockingly and painfully naive.

Is the assumption here that Google is somehow better behaved than other corporations? I don't think there's any factual basis for such thinking. In my experience, corporations are laser focused on money, quarter-by-quarter, with little to no concern for the human cost. Google has been asked for comment and has consistently declined, in my opinion we should give much more weight to the real person here.

We all have much more in common with the AI researcher than the large, faceless corporate entity. If we are at all principled, it's easy to imagine ourselves in a similar situation.

Why the hand-wringing over this email they sent, the suspicion that it was all "hardball negotiating" and "bluffing"? The email to the mailing list pretty clearly outlines their concerns and reaction to Google, it seems a pretty safe assumption that their email to Google management covers much the same information.[0]

This idea that they are bluffing strikes me as insulting: is there any reason to suspect they are bluffing? I don't see that in any of the coverage, by my reading this person felt this back-and-forth over the publication of this paper at the last minute was the last straw, their exasperation and frustration with Google is clear. It seems to me they were entirely willing to resign.

[0]: https://www.platformer.news/p/the-withering-email-that-got-a...

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#286

Post by cmiles74 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 2:27 PM UTC

telltruth wrote: post #151

timnit-drama wrote: post #15

The email she posted [1] makes it pretty clear that she sent an email with some demands/conditions (separate from the one "to Brain women and allies") and said that she would resign if they weren't met. Google said they wouldn't agree to them, accepted her threatened resignation, and told her it was effective immediately. Without knowing more context, it sounds like she tried to do some hardball negotiating by threat…

As I understand, she first sent out mass email to large group of employees that outright violated Google's policy. This act alone was sufficient for immediate termination. However, she then tried to bargain with her manager. Her manager basically let her know that bargaining was irrelevant and her action was serious enough that she is being terminated immediately. Then she comes back and tells the story with twist th…

Could you outline what content in the email as an "outright violation of Google's policy"? Having read the email, it did not strike me as a fire-able offense.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#287

Post by cmiles74 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:32 PM UTC

throwaway-kmc wrote: post #63

veridies wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd never heard of this fight before, so I just looked it up. My interpretation is that he made that claim, Gebru responded by claiming that that was an overly reductionist view of things (given, presumably, the fact that biased assumptions could affect the coded assumptions as well as the training data), he maintained his opinion, and she felt frustrated that she didn't feel she was being listened to. I did not see…

Here’s a good summary: https://www.google.com/amp/s/syncedreview.com/2020/06/30/yan... I think it’s clear Gebru was acting in bad faith and LeCunn was baffled and trying to deescalate. Gebru responds to each attempt to deescalate by a reply designed to further rile up Twitter, without actually talking to any of the points LeCunn makes. Virtually all of her replies are some variant of “you are wrong, but I won’t say w…

I have to disagree. I read the article posted above and this strikes me as an excessively critical view. I don't see Dr. Gebru acting in bad faith although they are clearly frustrated with the exchange.

> Virtually all of her replies are some variant of “you are wrong, but I won’t say why” and “listen to me because I am Black”.

I don't see that in the summary you posted.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#288

Post by thu2111 » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:35 PM UTC

berdario wrote: post #284

thu2111 wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It went through the usual security controls yet she was immediately fired for doing it? Really? Do you understand how that sounds? Please do explain how someone makes a message appear in your browser when you visit a particular website, without having access to a highly privileged browser extension? That can at minimum monitor the URLs you're visiting? I honestly really hope you aren't on the Google security team, be…

> it went through the usual security controls yet she was immediately fired for doing it? Really? Do you understand how that sounds? Yes, that's crazy... And that's exactly why people have been angry at the retaliation > Please do explain... To get more details, the appropriate thing to do is to draft a post that explains how these things are accomplished at Google and get it approved for publication by the legal rev…

Argh, being fired for this isn't crazy. What kind of "security control" allows changes to security systems that aren't for the purposes of improving security? Whatever controls you're talking about are clearly not controls of the sort a normal auditor would recognise.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#289

Post by whywhywhywhy » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #188

drewrv wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore was an engineer whose continued employment would open the company up to a risk of lawsuit. Gebru was an ethicist who was willing to resign over some deep concerns. Presumably ethical concerns. We don't know much more about Gebru's situation, but they're different enough that it's not a useful comparison.

Damore kept his memo internal and did not circulate it widely. (It was leaked to the public in a calculated attempt to pressure Google into firing Damore.) As recently as last week, while she was still a Google employee, Gebru publicly accused her “privileged White men” bosses of racial bias: >Nothing like a bunch of privileged White men trying to squash research by marginalized communities for marginalized communiti…

Think Google would have done everyone a favor if they were honest with the "AI Ethics" team that they're supposed to be a PR department.

Re: Ethical AI researcher Timnit Gebru fired from Google

#290

Post by lacker » Fri, Dec 04, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

telltruth wrote: post #155

techbusters wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is still a civil way to accept a resignation, with proper timelines and transfer of responsibilities. She offered to resign in some time due to some demands, and the immediate termination seems to be related to an email unrelated to those demands. This sounds a lot like a sleazy move by Google to couch an immediate firing as a resignation.

I don't think she ever resigned. My guess is that her manager Megan was being nice to her by saying that this is not firing but "accepting resignation". Unfortunately, her manager was obviously not trained in firing. Never "accept resignation" if employee didn't actually resigned, even if you want to nice to them.

If you say “I will resign unless X”, your employer is then entitled to accept your resignation. HR prefers to accept resignations rather than fire people, because then the company is much less likely to be found at fault, and it sounds like this communication was carefully managed with the help of HR.