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The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

economist.com

281–290 of 323 posts

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#281

I'm no fan of the US, but too many people here are basically saying "the US does bad stuff too". You're not wrong, your point just irrelevant. 2 things can be bad without either excusing the other...

No, the probity of those around you is relevant. It goes to moral credibility when you or anyone speaks.

I think that's bs. If it's not, then before anyone can do anything you need a complete list of every bad thing happening and you need to order it in importance and badness and then you need to get everyone to agree on it. That's a recipe to do nothing but argue. That's what we've been doing for 30 years.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How dare you use the word "utilitarian" in such an atrocious context. I've been a "real" utilitarian for almost a decade (as much as is possible to be), and I consider China the single greatest threat to freedom and peace on the face of the planet. Can you seriously believe that China would not be far, far better off with a democratic regime? Yes, China has raised up their economy, but they've only done it for the sa…

I'm not sure I understand your argument. Here is a picture that shows china's growth and wellbeing (life satisfaction). Managing the affairs of nearly 1.5 billion people is quite an accomplishment. I like democracy, don't get me wrong -- but I think the Chinese government has demonstrated themselves to be rather benevolent, on the whole. https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2017/04/Inc-vs-Happiness-...

I wonder how many Uighurs were included in that survey of self-reported happiness.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#283
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside: Most Americans who voted voted against Bush in 2000, and he would have lost the election altogether if the votes in Florida had been properly tallied. Most Americans who voted voted against Trump in 2016. Trump might win in November as well but nobody, not even in Trump's camp, thinks he will win the majority of the popular vote. This isn't quite on point, but all the collective guilt being slung about in thes…

You can't have it both ways. Either you're a democracy and the citizens are responsible for the actions of their government, or you're not. You can't hand-wave that away with "our democracy just works slowly" or "but the popular vote this and that". That's the society your democracy has formed over decades. It's your responsibility.

Is blinding yourself to all nuance and context about the decisions of a nation's government really the right way to think about the world?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#284

It's incredibly sad that the world is not doing anything about it. Even if half of the things they say are true - putting anyone in camps for sporting a beard or praying in public, forced prison labour, physical torture, separating new borns and kids from parents in camp, sending kids to brainwashing schools, sexual abuse, organ harvesting etc - it's enough to make anyone feel disgusted at this state of affairs. But…

I'm not outraged by the suggestion, but I'm not sure it's true either. Maybe race and theology play a role for a few people, but I think the vast majority would be just as apathetic if they were a white, christian group, as long as they were as socially distant from us as the Uyghurs are from us (imagine some kind of Amish-style group that had been living there socially isolated from us for centuries) Of course this…

The thing is, the west has chosen the "Christian, white identity" for its "us vs them" political discourse.

Yes, their democracy does strive to push multiculturalism today (it didn't in the past), but politically this identity is important as only that spans borders and allows them to forge strong political ties. They need to because older civilizations like in Asia and the middle-east out number them. Apart from this, it's basic politics that you have to seem superior than others to wield power. Thus, imperialism spread the idea that the white christian was put on earth to educate the rest and even rule over them. That is why white colonies - like the US, Canada, Australia etc. had more freedom and rights than the occupied colonies like India, China, middle east, Africa etc whose citizen where heavily discriminated against by the conquerors.

In today's modern world, this superiority is showcased through technical advancement, peace and prosperity - thus, US and UK made a concerted effort to ensure that conflicts among European countries ended or became minor irritants, and they appeared united. Thus the US, Canada, Europe, Australia all together project a united front through a strong economic and military alliance. And they also make sure that their close allies (that allow a military base) also flourish economically - that is one of the reason why Israel, Korea and Japan have a thriving economy (but a not so independent military).

To reinforce this perception they also cause conflict among the weaker nations. The old British policy of divide and rule continues to strive as historical grievances between countries are used to keep them fighting each other - thus today conflicts continue in South America, Africa, Asia and Eurasia. And they are fueled by the west taking sides as they please.

Another major reason for creating conflicts is to ensure that their military continues to have fighting experience - thus they are also regularly send to these conflict zones. (Afghanistan, Iraq and now Syria being current examples. While it was Vietnam and Korea in the past).

The biggest fear of the west is an Asia without conflict - If India and China and Japan resolve their differences, and work together, the age of the west as we know it will be over. Hence their desperate attempt to manipulate and push China into more and more conflict with India, Japan and Korea. And try to get these countries to agree to a military alliance with the west (the quad alliance - US, India, Japan and Australia ... India is the only holdout here).

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#285
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is the second richest country in the world. It has the most billionaires, and has experienced steady economic growth for decades. It baffles me that people still classify them as a developing nation.

Now do per capita and income inequality. Shanghai is modern. Huge parts of the country are developing.

As an econ major, it seems to me that you're only getting downvoted because HN is a typical place full of engineers with little econ understanding but lots of opinion.

Whether a country is developed or not is defined based on their standard of living per capita, not their absolute size. A country with a billion poor people has completely different social, demographic, industrial and political drivers than a country of 300m high I come people.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you are able to make this claim online (even anonymously) without any fear for your personal safety instantly proves that your claim is false.

I actually do feel a little fear whenever I make a comment like this online. That someday it will come back to get me. The United States government could easily bring back Mcarthyism anytime and start rounding up people with the wrong political views. It's clearly worse in China, but I do feel fear, even in the US.

So you think the US is as bad as China because you fear the US might become as bad as China?

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read and watch.

You should try living there.

I'm sure there are wonderful people and things and places but those are everywhere. Those are not the things that are different in USA. USA is exceptional in other ways. A lot of them very bad.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#288
post #12

I don't understand what's the point of UN when these things are happening in a permanent UNSC member country. This C has been causing nuisance to their neighbors all the time. They Debt-Trap poor nations and exploit them. From Mongols to India, every neighbor has a problem, they are probably most worst neighbor you could get. Recently it was in news with yet another conflict with India[1]. This needs to stop. Entire…

> They [China] Debt-Trap poor nations and exploit them.

Please don't be racist and mention China's use of these debt mechanisms without also mentioning the West's use of them. Debt-trapping is something that North America and European countries perfected first, in the modern age [1] [2].

[1] https://aljazeera.com/opinions/2012/9/27/the-world-bank-and-...

[2] https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/britain-stole-45-t...

Any research by Jason Hickel, Ha-Joon Chang, Paulo Freire, Walter Rodney and others on this topic reveals a very different story from the 'Captain America' version of American statesmanship that is propagandized by Marvel, and Hollywood in general.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#289
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I thought about that. "My neighbor of the same religion and complexion won a Nobel! I'm so smart!" Everyone is happy to put a finger on the scale for their own benefit. But this is different from everyone in the West benefitting from the telephone or whatever. They do! So does everyone in Japan. As for compound interest on historical plunder, that's another matter. I'm as American as can be (and as British in an…

> But to a large extent that egg cannot be unscrambled Well yes, that's exactly it! If we can't unscramble our eggs how can we can unscramble China's eggs?

We don't need to unscramble China's eggs. We need to get them to stop scrambling. The people are still alive, most of them, that are being wronged. We're not talking about 1492.

Re: The persecution of the Uyghurs is a crime against humanity

#290
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside: Most Americans who voted voted against Bush in 2000, and he would have lost the election altogether if the votes in Florida had been properly tallied. Most Americans who voted voted against Trump in 2016. Trump might win in November as well but nobody, not even in Trump's camp, thinks he will win the majority of the popular vote. This isn't quite on point, but all the collective guilt being slung about in thes…

You can't have it both ways. Either you're a democracy and the citizens are responsible for the actions of their government, or you're not. You can't hand-wave that away with "our democracy just works slowly" or "but the popular vote this and that". That's the society your democracy has formed over decades. It's your responsibility.

When Derek Chauvin murdered George Floyd that was a failure on Floyd's part, right? He was a citizen of the democracy and citizens are responsible for what is done in their name. Boy Navalny sure did screw up when his Russian democracy poisoned him. And don't get me started on the Jews killed by the Nazis. Sure, the Nazis came to power by a putsch and other nefarious means, but you can't hand-wave away their responsibility for the democratic elections which put the Nazis into position to seize power.

Yes, I take responsibility for US actions, and that consists of voting and otherwise using my power to steer the government towards moral choices.

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