Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

bbc.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 371 posts

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#281

Post by drran »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #188
auganov wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not even trying to be a threat. He supports the annexation of Crimea. Generally isn't too critical of Russia on any big geopolitical issues. Doesn't even poll that well. Only his anti-corruption activism might have made him some enemies. But politically he only makes Putin look moderate. Not fair to call it a "false flag" though as there's no obvious "flag" attached to this event. It's not like anybody has claim…

Navalny did not support the annexation of Crimea. He merely pointed to the fact that it is not that easy now to give it back to Ukraine and that ultimately after years of stabilisation and negotiation, Crimean popolation will have to decide in a trustable and open referendum.

It's easy to return Crimea back: Russian army goes out, Ukrainian army goes in. What the problem?

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#282

Post by dang »

sam_lowry_ wrote: post #280
dang wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment breaks the site guidelines: " Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Sinister insinuation about astroturfing is the internet's favorite pastime. The overwhelming…

@dang, I collected 5000 exit points of what seems to be sources of Kremlinbot activity here: https://gist.github.com/mikhailian/5d65694fdaaf0ccbab4c6cf39... watch out these are IPv4 and IPv6 formatted lists of subnets as exported from ipset. There are some specifics to my use case, take this with a grain of sault. Hope this helps sorting genuine Putin-lovers from Kremlin bots.

Thanks! I'll take a look. Feel free to ping me at hn@ycombinator.com if you like—it can take time to get to something like this but we're definitely willing.

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#283

Post by Const-me »

dang wrote: post #256
actionscripted wrote: post #91

If you ever wonder about the extent of Russia's online efforts consider that the comments on this HN thread might be part of things. Not saying anything in here is good/bad/other but you rarely see this level of flagged and down-voted comments in a HN thread.

This comment breaks the site guidelines: " Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Sinister insinuation about astroturfing is the internet's favorite pastime. The overwhelming…

> Sure it's possible.

I don’t think it’s possible. We have huge amount of evidences. This article alone has 150 references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency They include analysis of internet activity of state-sponsored trolls, insider leaks, and even documents from US courts.

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#284

Post by BrianOnHN »

dang wrote: post #275
BrianOnHN wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> countless hours looking at the data Will you provide that data for independent review? Edit: it's not that you shouldn't be trusted. The issue is the old “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” For example, what if a large segment of the user base, that regularly contributed extraordinarily positive engagements, existed solely for the opportunitie…

No, for the privacy reason pvg mentioned (edit: since deleted, but he made the simple point that it would violate users' privacy), and also for a different reason: it would convince no one. The only people with enough time and energy to bother looking at it would be people who already have strong views, and they would inevitably pull their preconceptions back out of the data and claim that they'd proven something. An…

Dang, I think that's a solid response. Thank you.

The theory behind SSM seems well thought out.

I think it would be helpful to enlighten people about the SSM when noting that a response is breaking the rules for an accusation of astroturfing.

For me, I think a brief explanation that well formed arguments are the only defense against an SSM would have removed a feeling of helplessness derived from reading your initial comment. And instead, lead me down a path which could really be helpful.

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#285

Post by [deleted] »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #57
z6sic6z wrote: post #42

Stupidly to poison someone, and then give them to other country.... 0_0 Say someone is a leader this less then 2% stupidly too...

I am almost certain that they wanted to send a message about who did it. Warning to other "loudmouths" that cause trouble for the ruling party. If you read on his site /YT he mentions names and how they steal. That's a no-no over there. They could have paid a homeless person to shoot him or just ask a Russian mafiosi to do it. But no, they want to send a message.

[deleted]

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#286

Post by tim333 »

I've been sidetracked reading about why the Russians are into poisoning people. Some of it seems to go back to SMERSH which as well as being James Bond's nemesis was a real organisation set up by Stalin as "an organised “liquidation” programme intended to eliminate Stalin’s opponents" as well as Nazi collaborators.

After the war it continued under different names and for example:

>One failed attempt was on the life of Lisa Stein, a radio broadcaster in West Germany who in March 1955 only narrowly survived a dose of the lethal toxin scopolamine concealed in a box of chocolates

And I guess maybe the tradition continues. https://www.thearticle.com/the-kremlins-long-reach

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#287

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg »

SpaceRaccoon wrote: post #262
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a Navalany "supporter." I'm an admirer of his bravery in the face of overwhelming odds.

> I'm not a Navalany "supporter." That's too bad. > I'm an admirer of his bravery in the face of overwhelming odds. Interesting. Are you consistent about that?

> Interesting. Are you consistent about that?

Consistent about admiring bravery in the face of overwhelming odds? I guess I'm about as consistent with that as most people are. It's not something I've given a lot of thought to. Why the inquisition? Is this a harmful sentiment somehow?

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#288

Post by dang »

BrianOnHN wrote: post #284
dang wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, for the privacy reason pvg mentioned (edit: since deleted, but he made the simple point that it would violate users' privacy), and also for a different reason: it would convince no one. The only people with enough time and energy to bother looking at it would be people who already have strong views, and they would inevitably pull their preconceptions back out of the data and claim that they'd proven something. An…

Dang, I think that's a solid response. Thank you. The theory behind SSM seems well thought out. I think it would be helpful to enlighten people about the SSM when noting that a response is breaking the rules for an accusation of astroturfing. For me, I think a brief explanation that well formed arguments are the only defense against an SSM would have removed a feeling of helplessness derived from reading your initial…

That's great feedback. I only thought of that "SSM" wording just now but will try to weave it into future explanations. You can see that this argument has been cooking for a while: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23839602. There are lots of other instances but I can't think of a search query to dig them up.

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#289

Post by mprovost »

Udik wrote: post #226
mprovost wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They know who did it - two colonels and a general in the GRU. I suppose you can say it was circumstantial in that nobody caught them actually putting the poison on their doorknob, but it's pretty well accepted that 3 officers from Russian intelligence travelled to Salisbury using false identification on the day of the poisoning and then left the country. Unless you believe their explanation that they were there to "s…

But why the hell did they do it?

Sergei Skripal was a colonel in the GRU who was also a spy for MI6 and who moved to the UK as part of a prisoner swap. Apparently he hadn't quite retired and was still briefing western intelligence services just before his poisoning.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/14/sergei-skrip...

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#290

Post by notahacker »

sireat wrote: post #259
ogogmad wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think many Russian people, especially those who watch or read mainly Russian news, hold such views with complete sincerity. The internal propaganda is quite effective.

Anecdotally, my inlaws who are NOT Russian also hold pro-Putin and pro-Lukashenko views. I avoid politics with them. Why? Because they mostly watch Russian TV (those Russian WW2 serials are addicting). The propaganda in the Russian TV talk shows and news is very well done. It is just like any other echo chamber. Just like watching Fox News,listening to Limbaugh in US, etc. There are echo chambers for all political sp…

Yep. There have always been echo chambers where hostile international relations, repressing rival political movements and even open corruption are seen as good things by millions of people in established liberal democracies.

Why would it be surprising this might also be the case for many Russians, with an existing tradition of hostile international relations with the West, and more repressive and corrupt governments, especially when many Russians also felt a lot poorer before Putin arrived?

Post reply on HN