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Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

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Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#281

Post by dahdum »

Razengan wrote: post #154
ralusek wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, there are pretty objective things to test for. Object permanence. How many things can they keep in working memory? How many steps can they work through linearly to an objective? How many dependent elements of a puzzle can be branched off for a single step? Can they understand symbols as being representative of objects? Of verbs? Adjectives? Can they understand counting, grouping? Can they extrapolate solution…

One overriding question may be: Do they need to? There are things that other animals can do which humans can't, such as an octopus communicating with a grouper fish, two entirely different species, by changing the color and patterns of their skin, to corral and trap a prey (as seen on a segment of BBC's Blue Planet.) Are humans "dumber" if we use that objective criteria to compare intelligence?

> Are humans "dumber" if we use that objective criteria to compare intelligence?

We have advanced communication with our domesticated animals, especially dogs. Also have some communication with non domesticated animals like primates, dolphins, etc..

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#282

Post by axegon »

mcv wrote: post #230
axegon wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exact thing happened to me one or two days ago. I was driving home and on a small street near my apartment a crow flew out of the bushes and dropped something right in front of the car and then it landed on the other side of the street. When I looked back in the mirror, the crow had gone back to collect what looked like a walnut. On a semi-related note, magpies are also doing really well in that race. End of last yea…

I thought magpies were supposed to be thieves, but you seem to have an honest one that pays for its food.

Yeah, otherwise it could have stolen cash and paid for the food but it's cutting away the middle man all the way.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#285

Post by andrewflnr »

csomar wrote: post #205
mrtksn wrote: post #25

Previously I heard about crows in Japan leaving nuts on the way of the cars to crash them when traffic lights are red and collecting them the next cycle. This summer I witnessed the exact same thing when I was driving through a particularly jammy traffic light here in Europe. Are these crows inventing the method over and over again independently, like scientists finding the same thing at the same time in different pa…

I wonder if what makes humans "intelligent" is exactly this. Plus we have a 70-90 years of life. Which is long enough to learn and do stuff, compare that to 10-15 years for your average crow. We start bombarding babies with information since a very early age. Parents, are incentivized to teach their babies how to talk, walk, read, write, do stuff, eat, sing, etc... The amount of cognitive exercise is insane. And a hu…

I'd say it still takes a lot of intelligence for all that training to be effective. If we were much dumber it wouldn't even help. Long life is probably necessary but definitely not sufficient.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#286

Post by derefr »

dta3456 wrote: post #139

When I was a child, I'd spend a lot of time at my grandfathers farm, and one summer he took in an injured crow that hurt its wing. For some strange reason, he named all of his animals Jack, cats, dogs and now crows. So we'd go out in the morning and my grandfather would call out "Jack" and the Dog would come running down the yard, and then next thing you'd see the crow hopping down the yard after the dog. It would ar…

> So we'd go out in the morning and my grandfather would call out "Jack" and the Dog would come running down the yard, and then next thing you'd see the crow hopping down the yard after the dog.

Tangent: this is a handy effect, if you could get it to work, but it’s a bit surprising if it did work: animals have different audible frequency ranges, and, obviously, they’ll only respond to a name they can hear. Dogs and crows might have similar audible ranges (this is suggestive anecdata to that effect!), but I know that the range for cats is slightly higher, such that a name like “jack” wouldn’t even register to them. (You need a name with a close/front vowel sound in it, since humans produce those with a high pitch. Thus why the word “kitty” is thought to exist—it evolved as an optimal call-name! Or you can just “pspsps”, since that also comes out high-enough that cats hear it quite clearly.)

From what you said, there was also a cat named “jack”—did it come when called? If so, did calling it require a second, higher-keyed calling of the name?

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#287

Post by archi42 »

Arn_Thor wrote: post #84

I read that as "cows" and thought "I never woulda guessed, but suppose it makes sense". I think it's time to call it a day

Yeah, though cows are probably not completely dumb, either (maybe less intelligent than crows, but who am I to judge?). This one enjoys playing with a huge ball: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx-CxuAeVPo

Maybe they just seem dumb because they're usually bored to death standing on the grass with nothing to do but eat?

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#288

Post by derefr »

MS90 wrote: post #248
tannhaeuser wrote: post #159

Crows are known to give "presents" to humans they like, such as dropping small pieces of metal they picked up, or worms. Also, crows have very rich tribal behaviours going on. There's a town close to mine called Husum (in North Germany) where there's a multi-year battle going on between crows in the park. You immediately notice it by the noise, and in fact by dead crows lying on the ground.

I remember reading a story a while back about a kid that threw rocks at a tree full of crows one day when he was walking to the school bus. After that day, the crows decided that this child was the enemy. Many kids walked past the tree on the way to the school bus every day and the crows completely ignored them, but when little rock thrower walked by he'd literally get shit bombed by 20-30 crows all the way to the bu…

I wonder if anyone’s ever done an experiment on the social connectivity of crows, by first somehow pissing off an entire flock of crows; and then tagging a particular individual crow, and repeatedly being friendly to/appeasing that crow, and seeing how long the it takes for the message that you’re not such a jerk after all to spread among the rest of the crow population.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#289

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

IanSanders wrote: post #231
sethammons wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One theory I heard on cats leaving dead things for you is that they think of you as a non-effective cat that needs help killin things, similar to a mom cat teaching kittens to hunt.

Wonder what one can do to "prove themselves", perhaps let the cat witness them catch something? Sounds like a great research subject.

Leave an elk carcass on their pillow, that ought to shut them up.

Re: Crows could be the smartest animal other than primates

#290

Post by tannhaeuser »

abrodersen wrote: post #259
tannhaeuser wrote: post #159

Crows are known to give "presents" to humans they like, such as dropping small pieces of metal they picked up, or worms. Also, crows have very rich tribal behaviours going on. There's a town close to mine called Husum (in North Germany) where there's a multi-year battle going on between crows in the park. You immediately notice it by the noise, and in fact by dead crows lying on the ground.

I've been to Husum! I and my family stayed there when we visited. I'm an American, but my ancestors emigrated from that area. It's a beautiful town and we were shown the utmost hospitality by both the people there and our distant relatives that live nearby.

"Brodersen" (if that's your family name) definitely wouldn't sound unfamiliar in Frisia.
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