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Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

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Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#281

Post by bko »

wukerplank wrote: post #267
rubber_duck wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole thing is much better explained through supply demand and security. When job supply is low you want to maintain a close relationship with your employer because you hope this grants job security. When the demand outpaces supply suddenly people are forced to bid up wages - I agree that the culture might need time to catch up - like initially the risk averse will still be stuck in this mode and few will change…

Have a look a low wage/low skill jobs. There is no such thing as security, employees are subject to their employer's benevolence. They even have to accept circumstances that might violate laws. They can't fight it because they need the job, even if they hate it. I'm too busy to do the research for you, but Amazon warehouse workers are the first examples that come to my mind.

It’s the opposite. Low wage workers leave much more often than get fired. Consider Uber where drivers earn a very low net wage. Only 4% remain after a year. Maybe some are fired but I suspect he overwhelming majority just move on.

Amazon has the highest turnover of any Fortune 500 company in 2013. That’s because their workers quit. They have options even at a low wage. That’s why they recently raised wages.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/20/only-4-percent-of-uber-drive...

https://www.ibtimes.com/amazoncom-has-second-highest-employe...

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#282

Post by nudpiedo »

Draiken wrote: post #271
ivanhoe wrote: post #219

It's comparing apples and oranges to compare medieval peasants life and modern office work. Even today in rural areas people work around the clock in and around the house to keep everything afloat and barely survive. Sitting on your butt for 10h a day and doing intellectual work seems hard only until you try to do some farming for a while - and modern farming is nothing compared to how hard it was back then, when you…

I'd argue it's actually easier to cope when what you need is repetitive hard physical labor. You don't go to sleep thinking about that big problem you still haven't solved. You actually get the satisfaction of doing the physical activity. You know with certainty that you've done your job (you can actually see it) and you know when to stop because your body will tell you to. Finally, you might be exhausted physically…

> Having said all that, I've never had the opportunity to work with physical labor so my views are likely biased.

Very strong opinion to end up saying everything could be just false because it is a mere gut feeling.

Everyone has worries and problems, if it is not the weather which is about to damage the harvest it will be the expensive providers or the fruits imported from cheaper countries or the workers who try to do as less as possible with the maintenance of their tools. And after work everyone stressed because they are afraid that this year benefits might end up not covering expenses and not knowing what to do if the price of milk drops again and your 11 year daughter does not understand why all family can't go to Disneyland during the tourist season like her friends do.

You were right about being biased.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#285

Post by ryanmercer »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #265
vfc1 wrote: post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

> The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. Where can i read more about this assertion? I was not aware that serfdom would specify such details as the number of hours. I guess that serfdom would be a very different institution in each country, or even within each province; (I guess corvée service might have been a more detailed contrac…

>I was not aware that serfdom would specify such details as the number of hours.

I'm not sure they did, but your work day was effectively limited to when the sun was up. Candles were quite expensive well through the middle ages as they were mostly made from beeswax, lower class persons would use fires or candles made from soaking things like rushes in animal fat - neither of which provided light conducive to any sort of work.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#286

Post by ClumsyPilot »

ernst_klim wrote: post #277
lostjohnny wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Expensive medical treatments Again. Universal healthcare solved that in Europe. It is expensive, but it's a shared cost that benefits everybody. > Maybe the biggest lie is pretending to be able to predict the future Maybe, but back then they didn't have the means to care for more than a few days at a time, to think about the future. If they could have done it, they would have done it.

> Universal healthcare solved that in Europe. As a person which lives in Russia and Germany, I'm really interested in what you mean by solved? Universal healthcare in Russia is a total mess. Universal healthcare (edit: in Germany) have a lot of problems too, of which the most significant is underpayment, low salaries, and such a lack of personnel, that CDU people did really suggest to use conscription to draw the fre…

I am Russian, and Russia is a total mess, full stop. To address positive rights - societies don't just "run out" of money. As has been repeated a million times, a country with a sovereign currency is not run like a household budget. And the "right to clean water" is rather useful in making sure we don't have outbreaks of the plague and other fun stuff

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#287

Post by JoeAltmaier »

tempodox wrote: post #260

They had other gods to serve besides Mammon, and that was part of public life. Today, the only god left to be taken seriously, is Mammon. Serving him earns you respect. Every other deity, pity at best.

There's huge conferences for enthusiasts for Cosplay, Science Fiction, Comic Books and on and on. They take one another seriously.

So maybe in the main that's true, but there are many subcultures that don't pity one another?

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#288

Post by sterileopinions »

rubber_duck wrote: post #188
vfc1 wrote: post #114

The 40h a day week and modern-day work contracts come as a direct evolution of medieval servitude, with little modification. This explains the system of values that revolve around it, such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. The servant was not expected to leave it…

> such as for example the notion that it's somewhat something to be ashamed of for an employee to leave its employer, while it's perfectly OK for the employer to terminate the employee at any time. Your entire post is overgeneralization and dramatizing to prove some poorly thought out hypothesis but this here is the most obvious example. When there is enough choice people change jobs all the time - the demand in my l…

>The situation is pretty much dictated by supply/demand

Well that's not true. There are laws strictly regulating the supply and demand from the labor side of things.

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#289

Post by JoeAltmaier »

manfredo wrote: post #42

> One of capitalism's most durable myths is that it has reduced human toil. This myth is typically defended by a comparison of the modern forty-hour week with its seventy- or eighty-hour counterpart in the nineteenth century. The implicit -- but rarely articulated -- assumption is that the eighty-hour standard has prevailed for centuries. The comparison conjures up the dreary life of medieval peasants, toiling steadi…

Hell even during WWII, less than 100 years ago, people were smaller. The draft board rejected a tremendous number for stunted growth etc. That's why we have the 'free lunch program' at public schools today - to ensure a good supply of citizens with good nutrition for military service!

Re: Preindustrial workers worked fewer hours than today's (2009)

#290

Post by ernst_klim »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #286
ernst_klim wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Universal healthcare solved that in Europe. As a person which lives in Russia and Germany, I'm really interested in what you mean by solved? Universal healthcare in Russia is a total mess. Universal healthcare (edit: in Germany) have a lot of problems too, of which the most significant is underpayment, low salaries, and such a lack of personnel, that CDU people did really suggest to use conscription to draw the fre…

I am Russian, and Russia is a total mess, full stop. To address positive rights - societies don't just "run out" of money. As has been repeated a million times, a country with a sovereign currency is not run like a household budget. And the "right to clean water" is rather useful in making sure we don't have outbreaks of the plague and other fun stuff

> First, societies don't just run out of money.

Social programs do. Price goes up due to natural reasons, budget goes down due to natural reasons, your government can't provide a service anymore.

The most common example is social security, the pension system. Demography changed, age of retirement goes up, payments go down, and you can't do anything about it.

Sure, the governments try to deflate the price, but there are no miracles, and artificial price deflation causes deficit, for example a deficit of medical personnel or scarcity of a service.

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