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CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

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Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet even if you throw out half his citations, he would still have over 3x as many as the woman who was hired over him. He has 21,000 citations. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alessandro_Strumia The woman who was hired has 3000. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Anna_Ceresole

Yes, the slide you refer to, where he publicly names and insults a member of the selection comitte that didn’t hire him is the slide that relly got him in trouble. You are, quite obviously, going to get in trouble by demonstrating such lack of professionalism. Any selection comitte that considers questions such as: ”will the candidate respect collegues if they happen to be female” will from his presentation know that…

> the slide you refer to

I didn't refer to any slides. Are you replying to the wrong person?

> ”will the candidate respect collegues if they happen to be female” will from his presentation know that the answer is absolutey not.

But now I will refer to slides, to counter that statement:

Physics does not depend on nation, race, sex ⇒ open to good people from any background.

Curie etc. welcomed after showing what they can do, got Nobels...

He doesn't object to women in physics. He objects to lower standards and "positive discrimination" for women in physics.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#282
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They did not. The particlesforjustice is mostly hand-waving and claims about things like implicit bias etc. with little or no empirical support. See https://justiceforstrumia.org for a lengthy and somewhat more substantial rebuttal of the rebuttal.

Thanks, I'm strongly in favor of this debate existing so I'm glad that site exists. As I read it, that site does not rebut any of the claims of particlesforjustice. It attacks a few sources used by particlesforjustice in defense of the claim that discrimination exists in STEM and potentially explains the reason why some groups perform more poorly. Granting, for argument, that those attacks are valid and the sources d…

> I'm strongly in favor of this debate

Same here. However, the problem with this "debate" is that only one side of the debate is generally allowed and the burden of proof is dramatically different. For one side, "you can't disprove " is sufficient. For the other, even the most overwhelming empirical evidence is not sufficient, will get you vilified, branded a sexist and potentially lose your job.

> As I read it, that site does not rebut any of the claims of particlesforjustice.

While I don't agree this is true, if anything, the reason would be that, as I wrote before, there actually is nothing substantive in the particlesforjustice site that one could rebut. This is probably why justiceforstrumia had a digression on falsifiability etc.

To back up a bit, Strumia's presentation[1], was a reaction to the dominant narrative that the low representation of women in physics is due entirely due to horrific levels of sexism against women.

These are quotes from his intro slide:

--------------------------------------

“All women share the same kind of sad and unfair experiences since the be- ginning of their scientific career”. “Mansplaning. Gaslighting. White Male

Hetero Privilege. Sexual harassment at epidemic levels. Micro-aggressions”. Men mobilize their masculinity supporting ... men in ways that advance careers.

You don’t see? You have (unconscious) bias and steal credit to women. “Eval- uators tend to favour men”. “Scientific quality is a gender social construction”.

“Excellence is the current buzzword. Gender equality should achieve the same”. “I have a dream: that ... excellence in science is no more distorted and sweletred by gender stereotypes or creeping discrimination”. “Positive discrimination and gender mainstreaming”, “We have to help women at all levels ... to academic positions”, “programmes for women ... challenged in court for discrimination” [vs men]. “People and culture can be obstacles for change”.

--------------------------------------

So all he is trying to do is rebut these pretty horrific and vile accusations. Accusations that I am familiar with, they are pretty much the same ones levelled against men in tech. His counter-theory is that physics is not sexist or racist or nationalist but "open to good people from any background"

Given that starting point, we pretty much have to take "Strumia's thesis" as the default. That is, unless there is compelling evidence for the charge of sexism, we need to assume that it isn't sexism. This also means that he doesn't have to conclusively prove his point, it's enough to offer alternative explanations for the observed phenomena.

And he's pretty clear that that is what he is doing: he says explicitly that there are two explanations, one that it's all horrible sexism, the other that it isn't, and that he will present evidence that the second explanation is sufficient to explain the observations.

I never saw a claim that the first conclusion is impossible, just that the second explanation is sufficient, and therefore the first one unnecessary.

Which brings us back to particlesforjustice. As far as I can tell, all their points are, with minor variations, of the form: "but Strumia failed to take into account , therefore his conclusion is invalid.

There are two main problems with this:

1. No argument that takes this form is relevant to his argument, which was not "I have conclusive and final proof that this is the reason and there can be no other", but rather "I have a simpler explanation that explains the observation".

So this alone would be sufficient to discount pretty much the whole particlesforjustice

2. The second problem is that they tend to not provide any evidence that is actually true. Instead they assume that simply by stating , one must accept that it is true. Essentially, they are doing exactly what Strumia criticised, which isn't surprising as that is how these things are handled.

One small example: "Without a thorough understanding of these processes, it is impossible to conclude anything about people’s innate abilities."

If it is impossible to make solid conclusions, how come we can conclude that it very definitely is sexism? Basically, they are making his argument for him, and apparently not even aware of it.

3. The third point is that what they claim as true simply isn't. That is, when things are concrete enough to be refutable, they can be and are refuted, easily. Some by the data that Strumia provided, some by justiceforstrumia.

The reason one has to even mention falsifiability is that the whole particlesforjustice piece is such a mess.

Coming back to your points that the particlesforjustice piece wasn't sufficiently rebutted: why do you hold justiceforstrumia to such a dramatically higher burden of proof than particlesforjustice?

Cheers

[1] https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c_NyUhOZ8erdqU2AGZJZtNfFeA9...

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't call you a racist or a misogynist, or even Strumia (though I'll say it: Strumia is a misogynist). He simply pointed out that the basic mechanisms of scientific discussion have been abused to push dumb ideas in the past, which is obviously true. That is in fact a flaw in your argument. You're the one getting triggered here.

Do you know Strumia personally well enough to say what you said, or have you just bought into a smear campaign against him?

I have bought into the campaign against him.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know Strumia personally well enough to say what you said, or have you just bought into a smear campaign against him?

I have bought into the campaign against him.

Seems to be a good way to gain power for a talker like you.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not suggesting he had to, just that he in several ways went out of his way to make sure nobody knew what he was going to say. It's not like the workshop accepted his talk knowing he'd be presenting a contrarian view; had they know, they would not have accepted him.

Yes, but adding fictive ways to your "several ways" makes it disingenuous. The things he did different from the normal process (title, abstract etc.) are enough to show that he deceived CERN.

Sure! Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I thought you didn't have a point.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#286
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that "cultural marxism" label might be neither very cultural nor particularly marxist does not mean that what it labels isn't for the most part senseless bunk either. Oh, and marxism does happen to be more popular in academia than it deserves, too.

What does a simple idea like "stop treating women as though they were all idiots" have to do with any particular culture? If you don't understand the difference between "stop insulting your female colleagues" and Marxist economics or politics, obviously the problem is that there is not too much, but too little Marxism being taught in academia.

Really, the sooner marxism is completely forgotten the better. And what is usually called "cultural marxism" would make Marx and any classic marxist spin in their graves.

I would like to see some references of which groups or individuals, exactly, "treat women as though they were all idiots". Makes for a nice strawman but not anything that Strumia claimed, is it?

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#287
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cultural Marxism" is neither about culture nor about Marxism. The term was coined by anti-Semite William Lind in a speech at a 2002 Holocaust denial conference: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/... The fact that Peterson adopted the term does not necessarily imply that Peterson is an anti-Semite, but it definitely confirms that he is an idiot who cannot even be bothered to do basic researc…

I do agree it's important to basic research on the things one likes to rant about. Wikipedia in contemporary usage has become completely useless for controversial or social topics, but it used to be a reasonable source of information. This [1] is an archive of the Wiki page on Cultural Marxism providing some broad information and background. Suffice to say it was not coined in 2002 by anybody. [1] - https://archive.f…

You are promoting a dog-whistle phrase that refers to an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory: https://www.salon.com/2018/11/04/how-far-right-conspiracy-th...

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economics of sports are dominated by one factor, the size of the audience. If women started to watch female sports in anywhere near the numbers men watch male sports then the economics would change. As it stands, women are just not as interested in watching sports as men are, with some exceptions like figure skating and gymnastics.

This leads to a couple of questions: Why do men prefer to watch men sports, why do women prefer to not watch sports, and is the "watch same gender preference" the same for men and women? For the latter, my impression is that women mostly prefer to watch men teams too. Also, the audience=the customer, so isn't this true for almost all fields? If we are OK with wildly different pay scales in sports because of audience…

>If we are OK with wildly different pay scales in sports because of audience preference, couldn't Hollywood claim the same?

Isn't that the way it is though, movie stars are paid tons more than the rest ?

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#289
post #113

There's no doubt Strumia did a dumb, and while he may kind of have a point regarding the variability hypothesis, there's actually more to it. It comes down to chromosomes. XY individuals have a single X chromosome while XX individuals have two (duh). The X and Y chromosomes have a small section that pairs one another (the pseudo-homologous region), but most of their chromatin is different. The Y is mostly made of gen…

> Humans need at least one chromosome to be viable.

I accidentally an whole X.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#290
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last September, Professor Strumia stated that “physics was invented and built by men, it's not by invitation" at a presentation at the Cern the workshop. He also showed cartoons deriding women campaigning for equality in science and presented the results of an analysis that he claimed showed that work conducted by female physicists was not as good as their male counterparts. Did Larry Summers do anything as overt as…

Thanks for posting this. I remember in great detail what happened when Summers was essentially sacked from Harvard, and I thought it did a great disservice to the institution. He was presenting the mere idea, at an academic conference, that innate differences in gender could account for some of the difference in academic achievement in various fields is something that should be studied , and he was pilloried for it.…

While he was president at Harvard, Summers had a fairly obnoxious demeanor. Maybe that is his demeanor in all situations, and he has had a lot of personal success, but it was ill-suited to that particular job. The president is supposed to schmooze donors and not piss anyone off. That's it. Summers pissed someone off on at least a weekly basis. By the time he made these impolitic remarks, there was a long line of pitchfork-bearing villagers. All it took was one person to complain about him in unimpeachable fashion, and the Fellows started hearing about how terrible he was all the time. One of the Fellows resigned because Larry hadn't resigned quickly enough! In exchange for a loan forgiveness, the rest of the Corporation convinced him it was time.

Also he made a number of errors as president, e.g. the Shleifer thing and the unfortunate changes made by his people at HMC.

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