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Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

theintercept.com

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Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#281

Post by ionised »

robbrit wrote: post #4

I think what will end up happening is Google employees will just self-sort until there aren't enough people left in the company to oppose projects like this. People who are strongly opposed on moral grounds will leave, further strengthening management's choices. While Google is probably sad to see them go, it would be even sadder to continue missing out on the world's largest market. I doubt the employee protests wil…

> it would be even sadder to continue missing out on the world's largest market.

Is that sad though? Really? I'm not exactly tearing up at the thought.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#282

Post by ionised »

yorwba wrote: post #46
robbrit wrote: post #4

I think what will end up happening is Google employees will just self-sort until there aren't enough people left in the company to oppose projects like this. People who are strongly opposed on moral grounds will leave, further strengthening management's choices. While Google is probably sad to see them go, it would be even sadder to continue missing out on the world's largest market. I doubt the employee protests wil…

For that reason, Googlers who oppose these kinds of projects should enthusiastically sign up to work on them, so they can have a chance at influencing the outcome. It may feel like the morally superior choice to avoid getting involved, but it just means that the dirty work is done by someone who doesn't care. For the same reason, I don't think creating a censored search engine for the Chinese market is bad in itself.…

> Googlers who oppose these kinds of projects should enthusiastically sign up to work on them, so they can have a chance at influencing the outcome.

Incredibly naive in my opinion.

Google is not a democracy, its a pulicly traded company. It's no better than a dictatorship. Further more, a developer does not 'influence' the Chinese government in any way, which is what Google will be beholden to.

The good developers are better leaving to contribute elsewhere. At least when Google is nothing but amoral, unethical, grreedy developers with no social conscience then we can start treating the company as it deserves.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#283

Post by ionised »

yorwba wrote: post #69
fucking_tragedy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is blind optimism in the face of hard facts. If Google wants to play in China, they will have to bend to the whims of the CCP. No amount of employee foot-dragging will change that fact. > For the same reason, I don't think creating a censored search engine for the Chinese market is bad in itself. This is one the arguments that got trotted out by Google employees last time Dragonfly made headlines. The CCP is put…

They will have to bend, no doubt, but if they bend even slightly less than everyone else, that's still a win.

That's a pretty pathetic and inconsequential win.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#284

Post by ionised »

yorwba wrote: post #78
fucking_tragedy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's not. "Everyone else is doing it" is not an excuse to help put people in camps.

It is if you doing it puts fewer people in camps than the alternative.

Which will never be how it works.

You think the Chinese government will accept Google deliberately making it more difficult for them to surveill and imprison dissidents?

You're out of your mind if you believe they would allow this in any way. They would sooner turf Google out on its arse than tolerate any interference.

The Chinese government WANTS Google. Think about why that is.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#285

Post by marcus_holmes »

plinkplonk wrote: post #238
marcus_holmes wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would consider India to be South Asia, not SE Asia ;) and I've never been there so my ignorance is profound. It is a strong statement. But as far as I can tell it's a true one. As far as I'm aware there's no SE Asian country that has a democratic government that we in the west would consider acceptable. I could be wrong - there are a lot of countries there and I'm not familiar with all of them. My apologies for the…

"I would consider India to be South Asia, not SE Asia" ok. that's fair. Do you consider Japan to be part of SE Asia? Taiwan? (Due disclosure, I've never lived either country - only transited through them - and don't follow their politics closely, but afaik they are both democracies with regular and fair elections). In your opinion are these countries 'true' democracies? (fwiw, not trying to pick a fight, just trying…

In my head, SE Asia is everything East of Bangladesh, South of Mongolia, North of Australia, and I guess West of Hawaii.

I would include China in there, but not Korea or Japan, for not very well articulated reasons. I guess "Southern China" if that was a thing ;) Not sure about Taiwan at all.

So, looking at the "Democracy Index"[1], the highest-ranking SE Asian countries are Malaysia and the Philippines, at 52 and 53 respectively, out of the 167-member list. The lowest is Laos at 151. Only 4 (those two, Singapore and PNG) count as "flawed democracies" (but then the USA is in that category too). The rest are "hybrid" or "authoritarian". I guess it's a spectrum rather than a black-and-white "true"/"not true" democratic rating.

I get that Japan and Korea have fully-functioning democracies, yet similar power distance in their cultures and a similar religious cultural basis. I haven't visited those places yet, so again my ignorance is profound.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#286

Post by marcus_holmes »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #253
marcus_holmes wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. We changed as a society, and what we have now would not have suited us a few hundred years ago, and what we had then would not suit us now. If we had tried to introduce democracy into medieval Europe, it would have failed just as badly. But by forcing our values onto SE Asian cultures, we are assuming that they cannot come up with "better" answers, and assuming that our way is the only way. Maybe there's…

> But by forcing our values onto SE Asian cultures, we are assuming that they cannot come up with "better" answers, and assuming that our way is the only way. Maybe there's an alternative to western society that they'll discover and share with us if we just let them do it their way? Maybe our western society is just not a good fit for their culture? There's a lot of "forcing [of] values" going on in many SE Asian cul…

I get that. But a lot of the time the drive to enforce Western values does way more harm than good. The obvious example is the Vietnam war (and the US treatment of Cambodia that lead directly to the horrors of the Khmer Rouge). But less obviously, championing a "reformist" in Myanmar lead to a complete mess (and arguably genocide).

Maybe if we started with the point of view that SE Asians have the right to determine their own government, and that may not look like our western ideas of "acceptable" government, instead of starting with the assumption that these people need saving from tyrants and monsters?

Right now the status quo in most of SE Asia is rapidly accelerating wealth. In Europe that brought the kind of social changes that demanded democracy. Maybe leaving them "undisturbed" is exactly the right thing to do...

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#287

Post by webmobdev »

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

I think people protesting about this miss the point:

- It is incredibly valuable to know what China wants censored.

- It is the people of China that needs to be empowered to change their laws, outside force from a foreign country will only invite conflict.

(Note that I have no respect for Google because they are a scummy company - not for censoring in China but for spying on people everywhere, regardless of their citizenship).

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#288

Post by sundar4344 »

o10449366 wrote: post #33
math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I truly admire you for taking a stance and fighting for what you believe in. Figuring out what you can and can't stand for morally is a difficult task. I hope others can feel inspired by you to examine whether they can, in good conscience, continue to support Google. I am not advocating defeatism. I am simply trying to be realistic. It is a fact that within the tech community Google has always been given more lenienc…

You are pointing out important things but also Being unrealistic is how change happens.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#289

Post by dTal »

tylerl wrote: post #279
JohnFen wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the opt out process is ever-so-slightly easier. Oh? How do I opt out of Google's spying? I already don't have an account or use their services, but they still collect data on me from a wide variety of sources, both online and not. As far as I can tell, there is literally no way to get them to stop it. I don't think Google has much of a high road here.

While your opinion is popular, especially among privacy enthusiasts, it's also inconsistent with reality. Google isn't spying on you. They don't give a damn who you are. This may come as a blow, but your browsing history is not valuable in and if itself. Your identity and behavior is only valuable to Google for the purpose of making you happy with their services. It's only desirable to Google to the extent that it re…

Source?

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#290

Post by pimmen »

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26
o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

What you've done is admirable. If more people were willing to value other human beings over their own comfort like you, the world would truly be a better place.

You're a kind person. You'll probably be alright economically, but if you ever feel socially excluded for what you've done, remember that what you did was right.

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