America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away • Hacker News Board

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#281

Post by CodeMage » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

i_phish_cats wrote: post #247

CodeMage wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both of these would ensure that we can get smart and talented individuals from outside the US and would drastically improve the ability for the US to compete while continuing to provide broad-based wage increases. As an immigrant, I'm all for better and easier immigration system. As a parent of an 11 year old, I can tell you that what your country really needs is not more smart and talented immigrants, but better e…

Nice anecdote. Here's another theory: American kids are being priced out of universities with good CS programs because those universities have burdensome pension programs that can only be paid by importing international students with rich parents.

Everyone who focuses mostly on universities is forgetting that you have years of education to go through before getting to the university.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#282

Post by int_19h » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #82

firedrakerage wrote: post #11

I do not typically post, but these suggestions seem like genuine improvements to the existing system: "Kerr suggests allocating H-1Bs not by lottery as they are now, but by salary — the more that a company is willing to pay for a foreign worker, the quicker they can get a visa." "A second change would be to allow H-1B workers to apply for permanent residency green cards on their own, without having to be sponsored by…

I just wish it was reciprocated. I would like to work in Spain (no really). If I work in Spain, the US should open a spot for someone from Spain to work in the US. You want to hire someone from Turkey? No problem, find someone in the US to move to Turkey. You could allow companies to even grease the wheels, "Work from Turkey and get a 30k / year extra free bonus stipend!! yay!!"

This kinda implies that countries own people.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#283

Post by NeoBasilisk » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

core-questions wrote: post #275

noobermin wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private, elite prep schools and colleges in the US are the best. The average college or high school is dismal compared to the rest of the world. We consistently score below the average of OECD countries.

These stats are thrown off by a number of factors that it would be imprudent to get into here. Control for demographic samples similar to the other countries and you'll see a very different picture.

So you're saying poor people in the US don't matter because they bring down the average?

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#284

Post by int_19h » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:09 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #33

firedrakerage wrote: post #11

I do not typically post, but these suggestions seem like genuine improvements to the existing system: "Kerr suggests allocating H-1Bs not by lottery as they are now, but by salary — the more that a company is willing to pay for a foreign worker, the quicker they can get a visa." "A second change would be to allow H-1B workers to apply for permanent residency green cards on their own, without having to be sponsored by…

The problem is that pay isn't uniform across skilled labor demand, and the purpose of the H1B program is to fulfill demand in the economy. If you set a quota and give to the highest bidder, you're going to see private sector executives and financial roles being filled in cities with high costs of living and competitive wages. Salary is a function not only of demand but also location and industry. This will discrimina…

Does rural and middle America rely on H1B to fill its labor pool today?

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#285

Post by int_19h » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #227

kd0amg wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it would be working as intended. Jobs where labor isn't so scarce as to push prevailing wages up really high don't need extra labor brought into the market. The remaining concern is distorted markets like foreign language teachers (brought up elsewhere in the thread), where it may be politically infeasible to raise compensation to match the value workers create.

The purpose of the H1B program is to fulfill skilled labor demand where local labor is unable to fill it. The purpose is not to give visas to the wealthiest bidder in the wealthiest locations and industries. Prevailing wage requirement already solves the problem of wage velocity, so this is just creating more issues without solving any.

"Unable to fill" is itself a function of the salary. If a local business is unable to fill it at what they're willing to pay, how about paying more to attract said labor from other parts of the country?

H1B and similar programs should be used to fill in the holes that are on the national level - i.e. where there's no labor force anywhere else in the country that could be enticed to move.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#286

Post by edflsafoiewq » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:12 PM UTC

angarg12 wrote: post #125

sbr464 wrote: post #21

A side benefit that I hadn’t really considered but seems obvious; By taking in skilled workers from other countries, it’s like poaching talent from another company. Then they aren’t contributing to or building companies in their former country. Not sure the scale you would need to make a dent, but is there a name for this?

Brain Drain is a real issue in some parts of the world. I grew up in Spain and got all my higher education for free. The state essentially spent large amount of money in me, hoping that I would give it back to the economy as a skilled worker. After the 2008 crisis I moved like thousands others in my same situation. Now other countries will benefit from the ROI that my home country made on me instead.

How do you feel about that?

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#287

Post by noobermin » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:13 PM UTC

core-questions wrote: post #275

noobermin wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private, elite prep schools and colleges in the US are the best. The average college or high school is dismal compared to the rest of the world. We consistently score below the average of OECD countries.

These stats are thrown off by a number of factors that it would be imprudent to get into here. Control for demographic samples similar to the other countries and you'll see a very different picture.

Singapore is a multi-racial country, and it does better than the US on PISA. So is Canada and it does better.

And if your point isn't race or culture, but of economic disparity, that is sort of my point.

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#288

Post by calvinbhai » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:13 PM UTC

tabtab wrote: post #146

The H-1B topic strikes a personal tone with me. After the dot-com crash in the early 2000's, IT jobs in California were hard to come by. I almost got one job, but the company decided to go with an H-1B worker instead. I had a new young family, but had to go out of state to find work, leaving my family behind. I'm NOT summarily against H-1B's but wish to insist they be used ONLY to fill in true skill shortages instead…

As someone who has worked on H1b in US, I can understand what you are saying.

Primary reason an H1b with a net hourly rate same as a US citizen is more attractive to hire, is because the costs of firing that employee are too low. Unlike a citizen, especially if the citizen is older.

With the suggestion made in the Bloomberg article, it’d have probably been a positive outcome for you if H1b was distributed by way of highest salary first, instead of lottery (which I think didn’t exist during the dot com boom).

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#289

Post by JanSt » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:17 PM UTC

geff82 wrote: post #279

JanSt wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not yet buying tight talent supply. Does your company offer 90-100% remote work (from Germany/EU/similar timezone)? If it doesn't the market isn't really tight. Software can easily be done from anywhere you want with few meetings necesarry (well, maybe for teambuilding ;-))

That is this HackerNews mindset. Software can be done from anywhere, sure, and big German companies get it coded in India or East Europe. The high paying IT jobs here are not coders who produce software, but architects, business analysts, project managers, scrum masters, product owners, data scientists, IT consultants who work together with the client in person. The coding and system administration is offshored in a…

It's way cheaper to have competent software engineers than to add layers of analysts, managers, scrum masters or architects (who copy well known patterns). Most SEs are highly qualified not only on the technical side but also on the business side and possess quite a bit of domain knowledge. Besides that, most of enterprise IT is not rocket science, is it? ;-)

Re: America’s Need for Skilled Immigrants Isn’t Going Away

#290

Post by CodeMage » Wed, Oct 24, 2018, 9:18 PM UTC

DataWorker wrote: post #266

CodeMage wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Both of these would ensure that we can get smart and talented individuals from outside the US and would drastically improve the ability for the US to compete while continuing to provide broad-based wage increases. As an immigrant, I'm all for better and easier immigration system. As a parent of an 11 year old, I can tell you that what your country really needs is not more smart and talented immigrants, but better e…

Your opinion is obviously contradicted by the facts. The American education system is a major reason people immigrate here in the first place. Many of the best universities and research centers in the world happen to be in America. You may have some gripe about your kid’s teacher or whatever, but if you feel that a single data point from a parent’s biased perspective is more informative than the facts and statistics,…

Maybe it's my fault, but I haven't found "easily accessible data" on the quality of elementary and middle school education, which is something a lot of people seem to be ignoring in this discussion.

Sure, people might be motivated to immigrate here by your universities. Even when I was a teenager growing up in an Eastern European country, I had heard of MIT and dreamed of studying there. But there's a long road to go down before you arrive at your university's doors.

Another thing I would like to point out is that an important aspect of an education system is the access to it. It's kind of like your health care: some of the most advanced treatments are available here, but there's a huge inequality preventing vast numbers of people from having access to those treatments.

Bottom line is that the overall quality of your education system should not only be measured by the quality and prestige of your universities, but a myriad of other factors that influence the final outcome -- that outcome being an apparent shortage of your own skilled citizens.