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Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

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Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#281

Post by adiusmus »

beaner wrote: post #235
adiusmus wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And having money stolen from my wallet because I haven’t logged in recently is NOT useful for a currency.

It's a technical caveat that exists now, but there's nothing categorically preventing additional technology to help users prevent this fate without much work. One thing I don't understand is why so many people seem to have this "Bitcoin CAN not, therefore it WILL not" attitude. Bitcoin is software, it is editable, it is being actively developed. Most of us here, I thought, were familiar with the process of improving…

I think anything that wants to be called a currency should be useful for buying and selling goods and useful for storing value. Cash right now can do this. Bitcoin right now can’t, and lightning on top can’t do it as per your comment about it having a vulnerability if you don’t log in.

I’m sure I’ll get downvoted for that statement as well.

This is simple bullying by a mob of people who don’t understand what a currency is actually useful for. And are happy to bully and attack someone for even mentioning an issue.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#283

Post by lawn »

smsm42 wrote: post #238

I am not surprised. I am a programmer with decades of experience under my belt, and I have no idea how to install bitcoin in a way that would allow me convenient use of it. No, I can install the apps, and I can spend a month or two waiting until it downloads the whole 40+G of current blockchain, or I can trust some site that says it'd fix it for me, or I can open an account on any of the exchanges and pray to cryptog…

Just use the mobile wallets? It's very easy.

There's no need for end users to store the whole blockchain.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#284

Post by digianarchist »

smsm42 wrote: post #238

I am not surprised. I am a programmer with decades of experience under my belt, and I have no idea how to install bitcoin in a way that would allow me convenient use of it. No, I can install the apps, and I can spend a month or two waiting until it downloads the whole 40+G of current blockchain, or I can trust some site that says it'd fix it for me, or I can open an account on any of the exchanges and pray to cryptog…

Run SPV wallet like Electrum. It's the same size as a regular desktop application and takes about a minute to setup.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#285

Post by lawn »

agorabinary wrote: post #158
CyberDildonics wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's pretty remarkable that the transaction layer (Lightning network) on top of Bitcoin hasn't garnered any discussion in this comment section I would say it's pretty encouraging since it barely works, doesn't deliver on any of its promises and much more convoluted to use that normal crypto-currency.

I can send less than a satoshi to someone across the globe for virtually zero fees, anonymously and without any need to wait for block confirmations? And all of this works right now on mainnet? Bitcoin progress has always consisted of overcoming allegedly insurmountable problems, Lightning dev is no different. Next up is solving efficient routing and intermittent nodes.

> virtually zero fees

Except when you settle the transactions where you will pay possibly very large fees.

> anonymously

Nope.

> without any need to wait for block confirmations

0-conf is fine for all but the very largest purchases using simple heuristics.

> And all of this works right now on mainnet?

No it's not release ready yet. Did you ignore all the "you may lose funds" warnings?

> Next up is solving efficient routing

Yeah good luck with that... Solving decentralized routing in an adversarial environment is a much harder problem than scaling Bitcoin. Leaving such a detail is idiotic, especially since there's still no idea how to do it.

Also you forgot watchtowers (since you need to be always online to receive funds or you'll get defrauded). Yes that's online with your wallet...

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#286

Post by kamaal »

klodolph wrote: post #66
jstanley wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The miners will not sell for less than their electricity costs, which makes the smaller piece of the block reward they receive have a higher price. That's not how it works. If you spent $100 in electricity and you have an asset that's worth $50, you can either sell it for $50 and only be down $50 on your electricity, or you can not sell it at all and be down $100 on your electricity. Electricity cost of mining does…

> That's not how it works. Obivously, the meaning of the original sentence is that miners will turn off the mining equipment when they decide that it's more profitable to leave it off than leave it on. > …you can either sell it for $50 and only be down $50 on your electricity, or you can not sell it at all and be down $100 on your electricity. This is a false dilemma, the question is not just whether you sell the coi…

Selling requires a buyer. Seller can set whatever price they like, unless the buyer is ready to pay for it, its really not worth much.

In the same way if all the buyer wants to pay is 50% of what the seller is quoting, and there are no other buyers around or they too want it for a 50% discount, 50% discounted price is what the price is.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#287

Post by zaarn »

superkuh wrote: post #95
Retric wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Average person pays fees twice. One buying the currency, and a second time at sale. On top of that exchanges have even more fees so, consumers are paying more than just one block chain fee.

That's not a big of a deal as you're making it out to be. I can say this because I use bitcoin regularly in commerce. I pay 3 cents equivalent (typical fast fee over the last handful of months) plus maybe 20 cents if I'm silly and use something like coinbase to purchase bitcoin initially. And then my transaction clears in 10-20 minutes instead of a day or two like the banks' ACH network.

For 0 cents, my bank does overnight transactions.

For 10 cents they do it in under 10 seconds.

SEPA Inst is a thing now.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#288

Post by davidgerard »

jchw wrote: post #43
jonny_eh wrote: post #2

When can we call Bitcoin a failed experiment? And don't tell me it was "always about storing value", that's not in the original paper.

Not really. Was the goal of Bitcoin ever to be the successor to paper money? We're here today and Bitcoin is a functional payment network. Not only that, it's a fairly large one, and it has become a household name. I don't really use Bitcoin but I think it's hyperbole to consider it a unilateral failure just because it didn't supercede traditional currency.

> Was the goal of Bitcoin ever to be the successor to paper money?

Yes, blatantly and repeatedly.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#289

Post by DennisP »

TACIXAT wrote: post #251
DennisP wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin automatically adjusts the difficulty of mining, targeting ten minutes per block. If the price drops, then some miners will find themselves unprofitable and shut down, blocks will take longer to produce, and the difficulty will drop. Mining effort follows price, not the other way around.

Price follows buyers and sellers. It is not some magical property that miners are chasing. They produce a product for costs and aim to sell it above those costs.

They're a small minority of the total selling. In the past 24 hours the volume listed on coinmarketcap was 500K bitcoins. The number of bitcoins produced by miners was 12.5 every 10 minutes, or 1800 coins.

Due to difficulty adjustment, they also have no ability to change the overall level of production. They can choose not to sell immediately, but for most large miners their costs prevent them from waiting too long. But since they're only 0.4% of overall daily sales, it won't matter to the price either way.

Re: Bitcoin's Use in Commerce Keeps Falling

#290

Post by davidgerard »

jobserunder wrote: post #268
mr_theopolis wrote: post #247

The problem with bitcoin as a currency or a store of value is simpler than all these comments. It is not secure. If I own gold, I own the gold, nobody can take it from me without physical access to it. If I own bitcoin, I own a transaction on a ledger. I don't own that ledger. The majority miners control the ledger. A miner who has 50% of hashing power (actually less, when selfish mining) completely owns and controls…

Selfish mining with less than 50% does not exist. False Also.... see how they confiscated gold in the USA. You cannot confiscate bitcoin, anymore than you can confiscate "internet" Both are networking protocols

> Selfish mining with less than 50% does not exist. False

Incorrect, and this has been well known for nearly five years: http://hackingdistributed.com/2013/11/04/bitcoin-is-broken/

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