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Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

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Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#281

Post by mockingbirdy »

mockingbirdy wrote: post #167
dotdi wrote: post #89

I'm from the generation mentioned in this article and IMHO, in the developed countries, people like me are poorer than their parents because the rich are getting richer and the "poor", including the middle class, are getting poorer as a direct consequence. I live in central Europe, have a STEM masters degree, my wife a bachelors degree (but is a stay at home mom) and, if we were to buy a house now, I'd be happy if I…

> the rich are getting richer and the "poor", including the middle class, are getting poorer as a direct consequence. This is correct. That's the reason we have to close the loop holes that make it possible that high-net-worth individuals evade taxes. Unfortunately, kids are very expensive, some say you have to budget €250k for each kid in total (until they start earning their own money). Most people make approx. €1.…

Would love to know why this gets downvotes. I'm merely reiterating studies on lifetime income and children expenses. Would love to know if I'm relying on wrong data (although the studies are pretty clear about lifetime income).

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#282

Post by pnutjam »

jessaustin wrote: post #261
pnutjam wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Memory can be tricky. You need some data, not anecdotes.

Lots of us remember reading e.g. Shakespeare and Faulkner in high school. If the most challenging material they're reading now is Rowling (or whatever GP means by "books for children"), that is data.

Yeah, lots of people "remember" doing things when they were sixteen or seventeen, or maybe even 12 or 13, but the memory gets murkier. In my experience, it's very easy for people to remember something they did at a given age fondly, and push it for their kids at a earlier age inadvertently.

Memory is a tricky thing. I wouldn't be surprised if you aren't comparing today's 13 year old to your 16 year old self inadvertently.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#283

Post by candiodari »

mnm1 wrote: post #241
Latty wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If everyone can finish University, then having a university title becomes pointless! Only if the value of a degree is having an edge over others, not if it's value is learning - primary school isn't pointless even though most people master it. This feels like it links back to the same problem as everything else - as time goes on automation removes less skilled jobs, and more and more people will need to do more ski…

I don't think we're at the point where degrees are required for everything, but we are at the point where they are required for almost all decent jobs that lead to decent lifestyles, especially in the US. We've been at this point for decades. This is the major point of contention in the US and around the world. In the US specifically, Americans want a good life without working for the education it requires. Most othe…

> Most other cultures readily see that this is impossible today.

Nope. All cultures I've seen so far have this. It's just that immigrants stuck between a rock and a hard place put in the effort to do better, and threaten their kids into doing the same. Or at least, they do so more often than other groups.

Needless to say, the natives try to sabotage this. This is also the same everywhere. In Europe, in Asia, in America. It's worse where there is more state control (ie. it's pretty bad in the Netherlands for example).

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#284

Post by candiodari »

tor0viking wrote: post #201
ajmurmann wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having studied in both US and Germany, US universities seem to have a much lighter focus on studying itself. The negative view would be that the are a lot more distractions like fraternities, sorts teams etc. Another view would be that there is a strong focus on network building. Fraternities and the whole school loyalty thing are practically made for this. It's a clear advantage to have those connections for the ind…

To be honest I don't like the US model. All the extra fluff isn't helpful in any substantive non-zero-sum way. You have the freedom to be entirely focused on academics in the US, participating in research etc. But you also have the freedom to live off your loans without any serious focus on academics, treating college like a vacation more than anything else. For the "students" who are tempted by the latter option, co…

The US model is in force (with variations) in the Netherlands, the UK, Denmark, Northern Ireland, Latvia, Iceland, Hungary, and for that matter, Australia. The conditions vary greatly, and I'm sure I've missed some.

The European commission already tried to swap all systems for a loan based one twice.

Which "European model" are you talking about ? If there is any of the models worthy of being called "European model", surely it'd be the commission's model, which would be the US model (with the state going after students who fail to pay, not sure about bankruptcy cases).

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#285

Post by ajmurmann »

candiodari wrote: post #284
tor0viking wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest I don't like the US model. All the extra fluff isn't helpful in any substantive non-zero-sum way. You have the freedom to be entirely focused on academics in the US, participating in research etc. But you also have the freedom to live off your loans without any serious focus on academics, treating college like a vacation more than anything else. For the "students" who are tempted by the latter option, co…

The US model is in force (with variations) in the Netherlands, the UK, Denmark, Northern Ireland, Latvia, Iceland, Hungary, and for that matter, Australia. The conditions vary greatly, and I'm sure I've missed some. The European commission already tried to swap all systems for a loan based one twice. Which "European model" are you talking about ? If there is any of the models worthy of being called "European model",…

I think the model torviking and I were contrasting with US is not how you pay for education but around facilities and culture at universities. Do the countries you listed have universities with lots of facilities that aren't directly related to learning, strong emphasize on university loyalty with fraternities, sports teams everyone celebrates etc?

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#286

Post by sobani »

Applejinx wrote: post #91
marvin wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did your sources distinguish Norway's Gini coefficient before and after taxes? My impression is that marginal taxation here is massive, since we have a sales tax of 25% (consumption tax, effectively), high taxes on luxury goods (cars especially), wealth tax of 0.85% of net worth every year and capital gains tax of 30% with no exemption for long-term holdings. The marginal tax rate on income is 46% IIRC, but your empl…

"wealth tax of 0.85% of net worth every year" Interesting. That's very much in line with what my experiments showed: just on a computer model of incredibly primitive 'economics', you can use an incredibly tiny wealth tax to redistributive effect. I think you can even ditch a lot of sales, income tax etc. if you're prepared to do a wealth tax. It seems to be very effective but this is the first I've heard of it actual…

The Netherlands also have it, sort of.

It started of as a 30% capital gains tax, but at some point the government was like: "Math is hard, let's pretend 4% return on capital." and we effectively ended up with a 1.2% wealth tax.

In the last few years they realized that wealthier people have a higher return on capital and the effective wealth tax is more progressive with an effective wealth tax of ~1.6% at the highest bracket.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#287

Post by collyw »

endymi0n wrote: post #17
jopsen wrote: post #11

Affordable education is probably a big part of how they do this. In northern Europe it is a clear political decision to invest in education. You'll politicians argue that we can't afford not to educate our teenagers, as it would make the welfare state unsustainable. Also, huge credit to Norway for how it handled it's olie money :)

In my not so humble opinion, it all comes down to a short- vs. farsighted culture and the resulting fundamental attitude towards kids. In the US, kids are seen at worst a nuisance and at best a personal luxury. In most of the northern/western EU, kids are seen as the future workers, decision makers and keepers of the whole economy 30 years into the future. All of the symptoms you are seeing, be it maternal / paternal…

I am in the EU, I find kids a nuisance personally. I couldn't possibly see how they could be regarded as a luxury however.

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#288

Post by jessaustin »

pnutjam wrote: post #282
jessaustin wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of us remember reading e.g. Shakespeare and Faulkner in high school. If the most challenging material they're reading now is Rowling (or whatever GP means by "books for children"), that is data.

Yeah, lots of people "remember" doing things when they were sixteen or seventeen, or maybe even 12 or 13, but the memory gets murkier. In my experience, it's very easy for people to remember something they did at a given age fondly, and push it for their kids at a earlier age inadvertently. Memory is a tricky thing. I wouldn't be surprised if you aren't comparing today's 13 year old to your 16 year old self inadverte…

I can't believe you're really quibbling over the possibility that some high schools assign Shakespeare...

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#289

Post by sideshowb »

usrusr wrote: post #76
sideshowb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the kids get mortgages in their 30s too presumably

Only those who either expect to stay employed in the same geographic area for the remainder of their working life (this has dropped from "almost everybody" to "hardly anybody" where I live) or who simply do not care (I presume that this has stayed constant over generations)

Here in the UK you can port mortgages from one house to another...

(Or at current interest rates let out the old place)

Re: Unlike most millennials, Norway's are rich

#290

Post by philjohn »

ipsi wrote: post #139
jonatron wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make 50k, have a child, and have a student loan, your marginal tax rate becomes 62%, that's 40% (income) +2% (NI) +9% (Loan) + 11% (child benefit reduction). I don't think that's progressive, I think it's excessive taxation.

It goes up to 71% at £100,000+ (then drops again at £123,700), including NI and Student Loans - maybe even over 100%, depending on how much childcare you lose out on. For example, going from £100,000 to £100,001/year immediately costs you 570 hours/year of free childcare (potentially a couple of thousand pounds per year), and all of your tax-free childcare (potentially over a thousand pounds per year). Note that this…

It's easy to prevent that happening by taking on salary sacrifice schemes, or even better, putting more into your pension.
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