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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#281

Post by rtpg »

viridian wrote: post #214
Animats wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately unions suffer the same fate as other "invisible" benefits: everyone takes them for granted and doesn't recognize their value. Unions - the folks who brought you the weekend. (That's a button and bumper sticker.) Also the 8-hour day and the 40-hour week, which the US somehow lost.

This reads like one of those really lazy appeals to things that happened forever ago to defend the modern organization. Republicans call themselves The party of Lincoln, Bell labs reminding people they invented the semiconductor, etc. Hearkening back to something you did a long time ago seems like a purposeful hand wave away from the present or recent history.

Ok so something more recent:

Unions are constantly fighting to make sure that the pilots of commercial planes are allowed to get enough sleep and not be totally exhausted while flying. And to make sure that flight attendants are only half-zombies...

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#282

Post by jasode »

21 wrote: post #275
dkhenry wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment shows the real divide on unionization and its not about someone's political ideology, its fundamentally about how they view the profession. If like you said programmers should unionize before the army of $12/hour programmers arrives then what you are claiming is that software development could be done by someone who was trained and willing to accept $12 per hour. Essentially you are making the claim they…

Plane pilots are unionized, at least in UK or US. Your average major airline pilot makes around $130/hour. Do you consider them a common laborer, like a delivery driver, or a profession that doesn't require a deep understanding of the subject matter?

>average major airline pilot makes around $130/hour.

No. The captains with a 10+ years seniority flying international routes might make that. The average is closer to $59/hour[1]. The average is lower than people think because many budget airliners pay only $20k for 1st year pilots. The waves of downsizing also cut salaries. That's for USA pilots. I don't know about UK.

Many programmers with barely a few years experience can get salaries beyond $59/hour without union representation which is partly why unionization is not an urgent need in the profession.

[1] http://work.chron.com/average-commercial-airline-pilots-sala...

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#283

Post by s73ver_ »

jules wrote: post #263
pyrale wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point you don't seem to realize in that string of comments is that the amount of extorsion that happens in an unregulated market becomes so large over time that it eventually leads to the dominant player stripping the dominated player of any hint of dignity and reduce him to total dependence. You cannot just look the other way and pretend there is still free choice when these people are captive and not even able…

> You cannot just look the other way and pretend there is still free choice when these people are captive and not even able to search for a new job. Holding people captive is the opposite of voluntary. > Here are a few examples to start with First example: Colorado National Guard massacres workers who refuse to work. Second example: a company, working together with the sheriff, kidnaps and kills people who refuse to…

>> You cannot just look the other way and pretend there is still free choice when these people are captive and not even able to search for a new job. >Holding people captive is the opposite of voluntary.

Yet, you were saying that compelling me to work 20 hours a day, which would effectively give me no time at all to find another job, was perfectly fine and still voluntary.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#284

Post by s73ver_ »

dkhenry wrote: post #15

No its not. This is a union fluff piece. The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition.

"I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition."

You say "compete", but I'll bet these people would say "earn a living wage."

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#285

Post by DataWorker »

mulmen wrote: post #273
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are a market force.

Ok, fine. "Is that because of unions or some other market force such as high demand for white board walls relative to the supply of contractors".

It's due to the lack of wall painting robots and it would seem that the market is soon to provide a solution.

The future will hasten the demise of human labor, it's economic inevitability.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#286

Post by andybak »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #199
andybak wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you call rent seeking another person might regard as sensibly avoiding the externalities caused by low wages. An unfettered market merely pushes the costs elsewhere and we all pick up the pieces. Your argument surely requires a mythical perfect market without externalities?

But it doesn't avoid low wages. It's a zero sum wage redistribution from other workers and from future workers to present unionized workers. If everyone was unionized, and if there were zero profits, then unionisation would have zero benefit for any worker. Also low wages are not an externality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality The point of letting the market modulate supply and demand is that it encourages…

> low wages are not an externality

The social cost of poverty is surely an externality. If you don't pay people enough to cover their healthcare, to give them the ability to provide a stable family environment or have a reasonable housing situation then the cost will have to be paid somewhere else in the system. And it probably will cost the economy more the further down the line it finally bubble up.

> The point of letting the market modulate supply and demand is that it encourages an economically optimal allocation of resources.

Only assuming a perfect market. Which is about as plausible a concept as a socialist paradise. The real world is messy and imperfect. People aren't rational actors. Laws are imperfect. Regulators are corrupt. Information doesn't flow everywhere equally. Monopolies and cartels exist.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#287

Post by jules »

s73ver_ wrote: post #283
jules wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You cannot just look the other way and pretend there is still free choice when these people are captive and not even able to search for a new job. Holding people captive is the opposite of voluntary. > Here are a few examples to start with First example: Colorado National Guard massacres workers who refuse to work. Second example: a company, working together with the sheriff, kidnaps and kills people who refuse to…

>> You cannot just look the other way and pretend there is still free choice when these people are captive and not even able to search for a new job. >Holding people captive is the opposite of voluntary. Yet, you were saying that compelling me to work 20 hours a day, which would effectively give me no time at all to find another job, was perfectly fine and still voluntary.

You don't see the difference between physically keeping you captive and offering you a job for 20 hours per day?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#288

Post by s73ver_ »

stale2002 wrote: post #216
Clubber wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a tech union would significantly raise the wages of technical people. A past job, I automated away jobs at $0.10 on the dollar and made a healthy salary, but it obviously was 1/10th of what I was worth. I left that company and all those jobs are still automated away and the more the company grows, the more they save. Also a tech union could push for perks like developer offices, remote work, better work equip…

This isn't really a good thing. Unions do things like engage in age discrimination by favoring senior members over all else. They do things like throw up oppressive barriers to entry, and limited licenses, in order to F over everyone who is not already in the club. Unions are only a good idea for exceptional 1 size fits all situations. For example, there are only a couple major airlines in the industry, and if you ge…

Who said anything about a 1 size fits all solution? Why do you insist that's how it has to be?

The Screen Actors Guild, the Directors Guild, and the Writers Guild don't work like that. Pro athlete unions don't work like that. Why would you think that tech would have to?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#289

Post by s73ver_ »

morgante wrote: post #243
Clubber wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unions do things like engage in age discrimination by favoring senior members over all else. I think you mean unions negotiate for relatively higher pay for people who have been with the company longer, or with more experience, but it would also negotiate higher pay for new hires relative to a non-union shop. You're also thinking of manufacturing unions. I suspect a tech union would be a little different. Things lik…

> I mean right now you hear about high demand for tech people, but wages don't reflect that. By what metric? Software developers can make $250k+ in SV. I have a hard time imagining pay doubling broadly. Only a small cohort of employers could sustain paying engineers $500k+, though I suppose it is possible.

That's in SV. And the vast, vast majority aren't making that.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#290

Post by dionidium »

tptacek wrote: post #119
tedunangst wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the local bus drivers union isn't held in such high regard either, so maybe not the best example. And I seem to recall Verizon experiencing a sudden spike in equipment failure right around the time their telecom union went on strike. (Happy to concede there are unions people like, but if that's your best effort at naming two good ones, I think the problem is worse than you're acknowledging.)

You're the one who said unions lead to tire slashings and house burnings. Obviously, no they don't, but when that's pointed out, you retreat to "unions sometimes cause strikes" as if that was your position all along. If your argument is that people have negative opinions about unions, well, respectfully, no shit. My point is that those opinions are not well-founded.

Minor point: the engineers at big telecoms aren't union members. They're "management."
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