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Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

scientificamerican.com

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Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#281
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that thalidomide is still given as a drug, because it is phenomenally effective. I don't think that the medical testing system when thalidomide was approved necessarily had the sophistication to make the right determination.

The US response to the thalidomide crisis was largely to give the FDA increased power to regulate drugs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefauver_Harris_Amendment This is after the FDA blocked approval of thalidomide, pointing to insufficient testing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Oldham_Kelsey

the FDA approved thalidomide in 1998: https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/nda/98/020785...

In refusing to approve thalidomide earlier, many thousands of patients died horribly agonizing deaths. Thalidomide was actually tested quite intensively however the company that did it "lost" the records that showed harm to pregnant women.

The whole story is far more complicated, and involves chiral mixtures, pregnancy tests, and a lot more subtleties that belie the simple narrative.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I may pick a nit: there are no pills in sewage streams. We're talking drugs in solution or suspension (the term "dissolved solids" is used in the water treatment industry). Drugs can very difficult to remove, and water treatment facilities are only able to remove roughly half [ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/only-half-of-drug... ].

Urine, not pills. Urine is filled with hormone and from what I've heard most water processing plants can't remove those completely. In fact, one of the pills is made of urine: "The estrogen-replacement drug Premarin, prescribed to menopausal women, is made from horse urine; in fact, the drug's name is short for PREgnant MARes' urINe". Since that the majority of female in the West are on birth control pills[1] that me…

Your conclusion isn't quite what your reference says. Hormones in the water supply are definitely a problem but the majority of women in the West are not on birth control pills. The 98% and 62% stats include all forms for birth control. The next line makes that explicit: "The two most common methods are the pill (11 million) and sterilization (10 million)."

About 16% of childbearing aged women in the US use the pill [1]. Even if you add all methods that can be hormonal (some IUDs are, not aren't), it's only 27.8%. Almost 40% of childbearing aged women in the US use no birth control at all.

For this discussion it doesn't matter that much. The quantities in the water supply that aren't being removed are a problem. In other contexts it might not be useful to think that nearly every woman who isn't a child or elderly is on the pill.

[1] https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/contraceptive-use-unit...

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You expect them to prove a negative? How do you propose they do that? they do this all the time in the pharma space. just arrange experiments on mice where they're subjected to higher and higher levels of whatever chemical until they're subjected to a level several orders of magnitude beyond any realistic hypothetical human exposure. then you cut up all the mice and see if they're different from unexposed mice.

I've had 6 pet rats in my life and each one had tumors at the end. I wonder if that effect is properly controlled for as well.

...yes, it is controlled for. Read the comment above you again. They compare exposed rats to unexposed rats. That accounts for your concern.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#284
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I put the word "chemicals" in quotation marks because, of course, everything is a chemical. I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't pick just one chemical (e.g. BPA) and heap all the blame onto it. As a society, we have to be concerned about the potential dangers of every synthetic chemical

> potential dangers of every synthetic chemical I wouldn't put too much importance on the synthetic / natural distinction. Lead, tobacco, and various radioactive elements (uranium, radium, thorium, and radon) are all perfectly natural. If you were harmed by chemicals in the last century, it was probably one of them. There are also thousands of lab-made chemicals that never make the news because they're just not harmf…

"natural" is in some ways a proxy for "understood". We know lead, tobacco, and radiation are toxic. We have hundreds of years of evidence. On the other hand brand-new man-made chemical X that was just invented yesterday has no track record whatsoever. We just don't know.

I try to read food labels, and it's exhausting trying to keep up with all the new chemicals they put in food (or in furniture, or plastics, or whatever) so rough heuristics become useful and help avoid spending six hours at the grocery store.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#285

My belief is that the primary cause is environmental chemicals, specifically Phthalates and BPA (and related chemicals). The science on this is fairly conclusive. We can show that these chemicals bind to estrogen receptors, that they're present in everyone's body, and that if you're acutely exposed to a higher dose, your testosterone goes down. In my opinion, these chemicals are having social and cultural effects bey…

>Ultimately we are in dire need of regulation of these substances, especially where there is food contact. We don't need regulation. We need consumer education (and in this gov funded programs can help) and entrepreneurship to provide the market with what it demands.

As an educated, consumer, it's freaking exhausting reading ingredients labels for every single yogurt on the shelf, and then every single ice cream, and then every single cheese, and every tortilla, repeat ad-nauseum. I do it, but most people don't.

If companies are allowed to bury the lede enough, customer choice can become ineffective at influencing the market, because it may not be exercised widely simply due to sheer pain-in-the-ass factor.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Urine, not pills. Urine is filled with hormone and from what I've heard most water processing plants can't remove those completely. In fact, one of the pills is made of urine: "The estrogen-replacement drug Premarin, prescribed to menopausal women, is made from horse urine; in fact, the drug's name is short for PREgnant MARes' urINe". Since that the majority of female in the West are on birth control pills[1] that me…

Your conclusion isn't quite what your reference says. Hormones in the water supply are definitely a problem but the majority of women in the West are not on birth control pills. The 98% and 62% stats include all forms for birth control. The next line makes that explicit: "The two most common methods are the pill (11 million) and sterilization (10 million)." About 16% of childbearing aged women in the US use the pill…

Sorry. You are right. That should have read "are on birth control" without the word "pills".

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#287
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof should obviously be reversed! Complex, synthetic chemicals in our water, food, packaging, or furniture should be assumed harmful and disallowed until it there is sufficient evidence that they are safe. Escalating trials basically. This is what we do for pharmaceutical drugs that we ingest or contact, why don't take this approach with other man-made chemicals we are adding to our immediate ecosyste…

Our diet is full of fruits and vegetables containing thousands of complex chemicals, indistinguishable from "synthetic" chemicals, that have entered our diet far too short a time ago to have had evolutionary impact. If one wanted they could surely distill many chemicals in isolation from these naturally occurring fruits and vegetables that in concentration would have many concerning health effects. The fact that many…

your argument seems to be "chemicals are numerous & complicated, therefore all new complex chemicals are okay"

the compounds that've been in strawberries for thousands of years are somewhat known items and lower risk than ones invented yesterday or even 20 years ago in a Dupont/Monsanto laboratory. The issue is that we have a business and political system that is highly incentivized to start adding contrived and novel substances to the environment at a massive scale and speed never before seen in nature. In recent times it's all to easy to introduce excess carcinogens and endocrine-disruptors into most homes or kill off large number worlds of honeybees. The effects merit careful consideration and regulation.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ultimately we are in dire need of regulation of these substances, especially where there is food contact. We don't need regulation. We need consumer education (and in this gov funded programs can help) and entrepreneurship to provide the market with what it demands.

As an educated, consumer, it's freaking exhausting reading ingredients labels for every single yogurt on the shelf, and then every single ice cream, and then every single cheese, and every tortilla, repeat ad-nauseum. I do it, but most people don't. If companies are allowed to bury the lede enough, customer choice can become ineffective at influencing the market, because it may not be exercised widely simply due to s…

Consumers can rely on certification labels to simplify product assessment. The certification can even be provided by the government! It just doesn't need to be mandatory. Those who want [private-market-label/government-certified/etc] foods, can look for the seal, and only buy foods with it, and those who don't care, or who want to disrupt their hormones, can ignore it.

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#289
post #236
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our diet is full of fruits and vegetables containing thousands of complex chemicals, indistinguishable from "synthetic" chemicals, that have entered our diet far too short a time ago to have had evolutionary impact. If one wanted they could surely distill many chemicals in isolation from these naturally occurring fruits and vegetables that in concentration would have many concerning health effects. The fact that many…

> Point being, there is no reason to hold any of these chemicals to a standard higher than that of a strawberry - that is, we can give people a bunch of strawberries and say any negative effect is below some acceptable level. And, in fact, we have found many "natural" foods containing absurdly high levels of arsenic and other dangerous compounds, and that has affected their preparation for consumption. The scientific…

"that have entered our diet far too short a time ago to have had evolutionary impact"

Re: Sperm Count Dropping in Western World

#290
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our diet is full of fruits and vegetables containing thousands of complex chemicals, indistinguishable from "synthetic" chemicals, that have entered our diet far too short a time ago to have had evolutionary impact. If one wanted they could surely distill many chemicals in isolation from these naturally occurring fruits and vegetables that in concentration would have many concerning health effects. The fact that many…

This is, I’ve found, a good way to start a dialogue with people about chemophobia. If you ask someone “Which do you think is safer: artificial vanilla or vanilla extract?” they’ll often prefer the “natural” one. But vanilla extract contains exactly the same chemical (vanillin) in addition to hundreds of other compounds, many of which are known to be irritants, hepatotoxins, and carcinogens—in high enough doses. Of co…

So here's the deal. There are lots of people who don't understand enough about science to have a real opinion that spout off, but you also get people in the skeptic community that rail on about "chemophobia", when they know just enough to be smug. The reality is that there is a significant practical difference between natural and artificial substances. Specifically, organisms on earth have evolved to be able to tolerate substances commonly found in the natural environment. When we introduce new chemicals, organisms may be able to deal with them, or there may be negative effects. If I pick two random chemicals, one natural, and one artificial, and I'm forced to ingest one of them with no other information, I'm going to pick the natural one, because it's much more likely that ancestors of mine have seen them, and survived. Those organisms that didn't survive didn't get to become my ancestor.

Now of course this is just an indicator and not a rule, but it's a pretty good indicator if you've got nothing else to go on. If you told me that humans have been ingesting some particular chemical as food for millions of years, I'm going to feel fairly safe, whereas if you told me that some artificial chemical just passed FDA trials, I'm going to be much more skeptical. Many substances that have appeared even in full FDA drug trials to be benign had very negative consequences.

BPA is a perfect example. It has a very strong affinity for estrogen receptors. If BPA had been in the environment for millions of years, the estrogen receptor would have changed shape to not bind to BPA, but BPA is a new substance, so evolution hasn't had time to adapt to an environment with BPA in it.

Now, we get to how to rationally deal with all of this. We get a lot of benefit from artificial substances, but they can also cause harm. We have to have reasonable cost/benefit calculations. The FDA at least has something like a reasonable framework, where you go from phase I to II to III, and then postclinical surveillance, each step having a greater potential risk with more people under less supervision, and a greater potential reward, after we have data for a smaller group.

This sort of thing doesn't exist with industrial chemicals that aren't specifically designed to be ingested, and that's reasonable. If every industrial chemical had to go through FDA approval, we wouldn't have a modern world. However, even chemicals that aren't designed to be ingested do get ingested. For things like endocrine disruptors, even tiny quantities can have significant biological effects, and it's easy to ingest microgram quantities of any chemical we make millions of tons of per year. There should be a lot more scrutiny on chemicals that have endocrine effects, there should be a lot more scrutiny on chemicals that have contact with food or children are likely to put in their mouths, and there should be more scrutiny on chemicals that are produced in very large quantities. Chemicals like BPA and Phthalates hit all three.

The problem is that most of the people publicly involved in the debate are either the crazy hippie type that thinks everything should be banned, or the American Chemistry Council that thinks nothing should be restricted in any way. There is a large silent majority that wants reasonable regulation so that their boys don't have deformed penises.

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